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Archive through November 25, 2007Onlypeoplewhohatethe30 11-25-07  11:41 am
Archive through November 27, 2007Johnlodge30 11-27-07  3:43 pm
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Carolcb
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Username: Carolcb

Post Number: 2944
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 3:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Because if you emit that attitude to your child, your child will never learn anything, never respect anyone, never think anyone knows a whit of anything and thus will not learn a thing.

If you would put down your dog-eared copy of "The Fountainhead"......

Is everyone in your family a genius or just you?
Seriously. The average white collar professional, that is really rich.

Did your parents find you in a field in Kansas, or did people in your family actually work for a living?
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Zephyrprocess
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Username: Zephyrprocess

Post Number: 544
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 3:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

and those who can't argue, repeat cliches
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Bobj
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Username: Bobj

Post Number: 3056
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 4:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mr onlyhate

have you ever known anyone who went through an education degree program?? It requires much more rigor than say "Bus Admin", etc

I think you must drink and post
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Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme
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Username: Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme

Post Number: 68
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

most tenured professors didn't begin as teachers, they are assistant professors and the like. tenured professors overwhelmingly have phds, been published, etc. the avg tenured professor at a higher education institution did not first start by teaching kindergarten. Academia, or true academia, isn't a fieild where you really start from the bottom up (except for the aformentioned assistant professor or fellow of some sort).

again, people, imt alking about your avg teacher at your avg sort of public school. I'm going to send my kids to really good schools, hopefully, where the high school teachers do have phd's and such. and they'll continue on to college where that will continue.

And yes, everyone in my family is very intelligent and well educated. Every single person in my famiy continued school past college and the places they have diplomas from are indeed impressive. And every single one of them worked and, with a little bit of luck, have been successful as well.

And yes, take your avg. lawyer (WSU, for exmaple) is going to be a lot smarter than the person who taught me 1st grade.
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Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme
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Username: Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme

Post Number: 69
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 4:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

bobj -

yes actually.

right since business administration means you have to take to semesters of calc, pricing of options, interantional finance, economics of emerging markets, etc. Yeah, those were real easy classes.
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Bearinabox
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Username: Bearinabox

Post Number: 408
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 4:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Every single person in my famiy continued school past college and the places they have diplomas from are indeed impressive.

All that tells me is that you come from money. You're putting yourself in a league with George Bush, not Albert Einstein.
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Bobj
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Username: Bobj

Post Number: 3061
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 4:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Those classes aren't that hard, took them all at the undergrad and grad level, don't kid yourself
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Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme
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Username: Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme

Post Number: 70
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 4:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

my parents are immigrants but sure, yeah i'm loaded.

okay man. i didn't find them incredibly difficult either, but they weren't fluff. and they were prob more difficult than thos required for an education degree. mind you, those were also the only ones that i could think of off the top of my head.
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Carolcb
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Username: Carolcb

Post Number: 2953
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 4:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Onlypeoplewhohatethemselves:

OK I will give you a pass, come back when you are 38 or 41 and we can talk. Just don't grow up to be George Bush, OK? Good luck paying for Country Day or whatever......Was your grandfather a bootlegger? Mine worked on the railroad. Remember, not everyone had running water back in the 30's......try to remember "do unto others as you would have them do onto you"......good luck.
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Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme
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Username: Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme

Post Number: 72
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 4:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

my grandfather was actually a worker in a textile factory in a country that isn't america.

yeah seriously, those prep schools and private school are expensive, huh? it's worth it if you can afford it (unless you live in a nice place that has good public schools, but property taxes sort of make up that difference anyways.) well, I hope I'll be able to make up that kind of dough.

And I'll be trying to do that by what guys? That's right, the service economy! but seriously, thanks.

i think i've actually been very good about being polite. people state their piece and then i respond to their points. it's a bit overwhelming since im so outnumbered but i provide research and sources with by answers. That is all i ask.

Emotional outcrys are great and this is touchy subject since we live in detroit (and both my parent were or are employed by car companies) so i know my position isn't the popular, but i can't argue with emotion.
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Bearinabox
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Username: Bearinabox

Post Number: 409
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 4:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Did you ever meet your grandfather? If so, when he expressed an opinion on anything, did you refuse to listen to it because he worked in a textile factory instead of going to law school? Because that's the treatment you've given everyone on this forum.
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Carolcb
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Username: Carolcb

Post Number: 2957
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 4:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK, Onlypeoplewhohateme......

Let me say this - MY son who is headed to law school thinks everyone is beneath him and nothing is good enough and somehow he was cheated from not being Edsel's kid.....so I know that people your age have quite the different perspective than I...

Just remember happiness isn't based on money. Granted, it will determine your life, and the freedom in your life. But looking down your nose at everyone just because they didn't graduate from Case Western or Stanford or the University of Chicago is not the way to go. Better to hope for happiness than to hope that you live on Long Island or the Finger Islands or wherever. Look at Christina Onassis, oh yeah, she is dead. Money will not make you happy.

I give up.
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Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme
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Username: Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme

Post Number: 74
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 4:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yup, he's alive and kicking (84 yrs). of course i'd listen to what he has to say, but im not going to engage him in any sort of economic discussion. I'll ask his advice for life lessons since hes got something to share, for sure.

I have an uncle, for example, who has an engineering phd from mit. I'm going to defer to him if we ever have a discussion about that, without question. i'll make my points as i see fit, but ultimately, his judgement and knowledge is better than mine in that field.

otoh, if we have an discussion about the economy, i know more about this than he does (he's one of those scatterbrained geniouses) and follow it more. he's going to make his points as he sees fit, since he is very smart and can learn quickly if i explain a simply theory and he can expand and apply, but he'll defer to me when the conversation gets too complex.
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Umcs
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Username: Umcs

Post Number: 395
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 5:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Onlypeople,

I'm assuming you are still in law school based on the other post you submitted regarding the Kelo decision vis a vis Detroit. I haven't read it yet but now I intend to.

However, I will adamantly refute your assertion that white collar professionals are much more intelligent than teachers or that somehow, teachers are deficient in terms of intelligence.

The basic mistake you are making is somehow equating intelligence with a lumping of career aspirations, technical ability, monetary potentials for various careers, and general trivia knowledge.

I have represented numerous highly educated, world-renowned people in the past as an attorney. I also know from representing them that they make some of the most simple mistakes in a wide range of areas of knowledge outside their expertise. I learned that a shop mechanic knew quite a bit more about schematics and visualizing complex systems moreso than engineers.

That being said, I also have learned that I was truly not quite as learned or as intelligent as I thought I was coming out of law school. I also know that there is always going to be someone much more intelligent than me and these boards are filled with very intelligent, very observant people who may not have a Phd, J.D. or M.D. next to their name.

I also know that teachers exhibit the ability to communicate complex thoughts and issues in a manner that is easily understood and learned by developing minds, the intelligence to be able to learn a broad scope of knowledge of general application as opposed to specialized knowledge, and above all, more patience than the average white collar professional ever will.

I'll offer a bit of advice for you in your legal career. Never, ever underestimate anyone, no matter their background, upbringing, ethnicity, educational achievements, or any other stereotype. I have seen teams of Harvard educated attorneys whooped on by a guy from Kansas with a Tier 4 law degree. Arrogance and hubris are the downfall of most "intelligent" people.

Take the advice with a grain of salt if you like but I remember a judge giving me a dressing down similar in nature to what I am telling you, only it was much worse for me in open court.
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Billpdx
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Username: Billpdx

Post Number: 58
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 5:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow. After all of that, I'm practically speechless. I'm just glad your name isn't 'Onlypeoplewhofeelsorryforthem selvesfeelsorryforme'.

I think I'm done reading any more of your idiotic posts.

Good luck with that boy-genius thing.
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Fjw718
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Username: Fjw718

Post Number: 168
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 5:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

what a great first impression onlypeople!

You've managed to have an ostentatious air about yourself in almost every one of your posts.

(and yes, i am a manhattanite)
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Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme
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Username: Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme

Post Number: 75
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 5:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

again, never said i was a boy genius. more tha once i've stated that i am not. jeez. people here are so quick to turn into a mob.
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Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme
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Username: Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme

Post Number: 77
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 7:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

fjw

how is it relevant that you are a manhattanite (btw, I have never heard that term in my entire life).
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Mwilbert
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Username: Mwilbert

Post Number: 14
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 9:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

O.P.W.H.T.H.M.,

In my limited circles, I am quite well-known for my insensitivity, but even I have noticed what appears to be a bit of condescension toward others in your postings. I suspect this may account for the "mob" behavior. If you actually don't feel that way, you should probably work on your modes of expression. If you do feel that way, perhaps time will change your opinions, but in the meantime, you probably should work on hiding them better.

On a different subject, you used the term "Manhattanites" in your post on the 25th at 11:48, so I am baffled as to why you would say that you never have heard the term "manhattanite" at 7:58 today, unless it is some kind of joke that I'm not getting.
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Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme
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Username: Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme

Post Number: 80
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 9:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

fair enough, i'm certainly not a meek individual.

that was actually a quote taken from someone else's post that i was responding to in my post. apologies for not putting the quotations. I'll admit that I was wrong to say that i had never heard it before, since clearly i have, but it does still strike me as being pretty odd, whether or not i verbalized it then or now.
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 918
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 9:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is an interesting thread: a bunch of us arguing with one of us. One of the points in this all is: what is the proper role in America of a manufacturing base? One role is security: look at why the South lost the Civil War. If we continue to throw away all our manufacturing know-how so we can pay 35 cents for a fork instead of 75 cents, we are sacrificing our long term military capacity. You can't have a national defense if all the things you need in order to build a tank come from other countries (who might one day be opposed to you).

Another proper role has to do with the need for a stable middle class, as described above. A very small country can have a niche economy but the US is too big for that.

But all that speaks to the need for a national industrial policy, and we have none, just like we have no national transportation policy and no national security policy. (If you think we have one of these, try to explain it in 100 words or less.) Our government is floundering on irrelevancies while the rest of the world overtakes us. Unfortunately, among the bobbleheads of both parties who want to be our next President, I have not heard any serious discussion about any real issue.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 3880
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 9:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree Prof. It is a dangerous situation to be in, when your industrial capacity is weak. Industrial capacity is what won WWII. The United States was not militarily in a position to fight the Nazis and the Japanese, but we had the industrial infrastructure to start building what we needed, and eventually outpace the Axis. Japan, on the other hand, had a strong military, but a serious oil deficit, and a weaker industrial infrastructure.

Now here we sit, dependant on our oil from the most unstable of places, most of which do not care for us, and an increasingly weak industrial insfrastructure.
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Swingline
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Username: Swingline

Post Number: 959
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 5:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I’m late to this thread. And I am reluctant to pile on Onlypeople and his stunningly patrician and naive worldview regarding the professions and service economies. First impressions of this welcome new poster were positive after reading his eminent domain paper that was fairly well written and researched on a pretty short time frame. On a couple of threads, including this one, he exhibits an admirable grit and tenaciousness when staking and debating a position.

But, it is too difficult to resist commenting on the gorgeous irony of such worldviews maintained by certain privileged classes. Onlypeople, and many other similarly positioned white-collar types exhibit an entitlement mentality regarding their careers that is amusingly similar to the attitudes of the old-style union members that the “professionals” view as occupying lower rungs of the proverbial career ladder. Just like union members fully believe that they “earn” everything they bargain for, professionals believe the same thing.

Yet, professional folks like Onlypeople will tell you that there is something wrong with the system if an assembly line worker makes $100K, but that it’s simply a fair economic market in operation when a 24 year old, never previously been employed/zero experience law graduate can immediately get billed out by BigLawFirm at $300 per hour for M&A paper pushing work that the experienced secretaries at the firm could competently perform. But we’re told that it’s the law degree, and it’s the bar admission, and it’s the fact that they’re using their brains that ENTITLES them to almost immediate wealth. The paper pushing is highly specialized, don’t you know? Well, indeed, M&A is specialized and certainly requires some training. But very few careers don’t require training.

Take those 250,000 Wall Street finance jobs in New York paying more than $350K that Queensfinest mentioned. Yes, they have training in whatever specific job they perform, but are they all highly skilled, talented and smart? Do they all have glittering academic resumes that somehow entitle them to high paying careers in the top 1% of earners? Here’s a question. Who should be paid more: the SUNY Binghamton graduate with a 2.9 GPA who has five years experience performing routine due diligence and SEC compliance work on M&A deals (most of those 250,000 folks did not go to Harvard or Columbia), or the 60 hour per week guy assembling an amazingly complicated and safe product that dominates almost every American’s daily life. Ok, let’s say the SUNY genius worked hard at school and is good at what he does, and his work is important to big transactions, so his job should really pay more. How much more then? Ten times? You betcha, according to Onlypeople-types. After all, it’s what the “market” says they should “earn.” They take this view even though only a small fraction of these Wall Street denizens employ anybody, or assume any financial risk in their work. In other words, they're paid almost regardless of performance. Kind of like union members.

Many professionals and Wall Street finance types truly believe that the work of each of them (with their enormous brainpower) adds infinitely more to GDP than does somebody who works with their hands. Thus, they are entitled. They are delusional also. Admittedly, and fortunately, there are also many of these types who understand that our particular capitalist system will enable and protect certain privileged groups regardless of actual or perceived merit. They know that they are just as lucky as they are entitled. It is the former group and others of similar blithe entitlement that fuel the widening wealth gap in this country to its increasingly dangerous level, and reject the existence of any kind of problem.

Yet, for many it’s all about merit, isn’t it? And if you get into that good school you have merit, and you deserve to be paid, right?

Onlypeople, they say it’s all in the genes, but you never know. I hope your kids get into Harvard.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 5825
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 6:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well stated Swingline... it's a wonder why Wall Street doesn't outsource many of those 350K whiz kid jobs to India... then they could keep the stock market open 24 hours a day...

Oh the irony... and think of the Schadenfreude that would make across America...
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Crawford
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Username: Crawford

Post Number: 169
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 6:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Swingline, while I understand your overall point, you're wrong about Wall Streeters' credentials. They overwhelmingly graduated from Ivy League or Ivy League-equivalent (Stanford, Amherst, MIT) schools, and they overwhelmingly had very good grades.

I know this because my ex worked in the recruitment dept. of a bulge bracket firm. They only take top students from top schools. Most students were Harvard, Yale, Columbia, etc. Even Michigan was uncommon.

IMO, it makes no sense to have $100,000 assembly line workers when you can get the same results for much less abroad. I don't have a problem with the exporting of some of these jobs. We need to work to keep the highly skilled engineering and related posititions here in what is still the world's automotive capital.
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Crawford
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Username: Crawford

Post Number: 170
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 6:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok, Wall Street HAS outsourced everything to cheaper places. Only the high-end, front-office stuff is in NYC and London.

It's Detroit that still has tens of thousands of people that are working in the least efficient locations one can imagine. Why would you invest in manufacturing in metro Detroit when you could do the same work in Guadalajara for much less?
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Wazootyman
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Username: Wazootyman

Post Number: 289
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 11:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've been out of this argument for quite a while now, but there are a lot of very intelligent posts whose content and composure make me envious. Well, except for one poster, but I can't hate myself.

This summer I took the Ford Rouge tour for the first time - and I decided that assembly line work is much harder than it seems on the surface. I absolutely think a guy who's been working the line for 20-30 years, putting in 60 hour weeks should be entitled to $100k. To withstand the physical strain, repetition and overall responsibility has got to be worth something. I'm sure there are lazy union guys making more than they should, and in fact a friend who worked as a line supervisor for GM one summer told me all about a few of the guys. But, who doesn't know a "professional" who pulls in a similar salary and spends most of his day socializing and browsing eBay?

A couple of guys I graduated high school with are now on Wall Street. Actually, I think they're on 5th Avenue, but at an big time investment firm nonetheless. The two of them are very smart individuals, but they don't have ivy league credentials. They graduated from Michigan Tech with a degree very similar to mine (engineering). Yet, they're on their way to becoming millionaires within a year or two. What do they do? They work for a company that profits from monetary transactions. They don't generate a product, or service beyond making their wealthy investors wealthier. Regardless of any important role in the economy their job may hold, how can it make so many individuals in their 20's into millionaires? I am making a small fraction of that designing automotive components for a local manufacturer. Of course I'm a little bitter, but that's not the point; it just doesn't make sense.

Crawford - the problem I see with that argument is where does it stop? Export the manufacturer, then the engineers, then the accountants... Ironically my company utilizes a manufacturing plant in Guadalajara for part of our assembly. I can assure you that the results from Mexico (or even worse, China) are inferior to those of a domestically produced product. Of course, we can't move production to the US because it'd cost three times as much, the OEMs would drop us and we'd go out of business. It's a sad reality.

I think my final point is that while I assume many of us have college degrees, we all know individuals without degrees whose skills and knowledge we envy. The company I used to work for employed many people like this; most had been at the company for 20-30 years. From the self-taught software guy whose experience and natural talent made him a better coder than most anyone I know, to the assembly guys who could flawlessly fab up just about anything from a drawing, to the service technicians who could identify an electrical flaw by instinct...none of them had degrees, yet I wouldn't challenge a single one with my diploma.
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Bearinabox
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Username: Bearinabox

Post Number: 410
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 12:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^Great post, Wazootyman.
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Umcs
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Username: Umcs

Post Number: 399
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 9:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Research analyst positions have already been out-sourced by a number of the "name" Wall Street firms to India. Bloomberg just did a piece on this.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/ news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aBrxe TBQQrWs

I hate saying it but we're screwed if this keeps up. It's pretty bad when a specific region in India resulted in the term for the off-shoring of your job. "Have you been 'Bangalored' yet?"
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 2269
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 11:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Swingline, while I understand your overall point, you're wrong about Wall Streeters' credentials. They overwhelmingly graduated from Ivy League or Ivy League-equivalent (Stanford, Amherst, MIT) schools, and they overwhelmingly had very good grades.

I know this because my ex worked in the recruitment dept. of a bulge bracket firm. They only take top students from top schools. Most students were Harvard, Yale, Columbia, etc. Even Michigan was uncommon.

IMO, it makes no sense to have $100,000 assembly line workers when you can get the same results for much less abroad. I don't have a problem with the exporting of some of these jobs. We need to work to keep the highly skilled engineering and related posititions here in what is still the world's automotive capital.



Lions for lambs. The honest truth is that most of these posers walking around here punching away at their Blackberry's and trying to look important are beneficiaries of circumstance. It does not take a genius to do what most of them do, which is great because most of them aren't geniuses.

They may have graduated Ivy League (or Ivy equivalent), but what was their major? I know posers in investment banker programs at these Wall St banks with freakin psychology degrees. I'm talking banks like Deutsche, JP Morgan, etc. They got there because of who they know and how well they dance. Nothing particularly special about that.
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Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme
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Username: Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme

Post Number: 82
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

you guys are some of the most bitter individuals. the fact is, the world is passing you guys by.
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Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme
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Username: Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme

Post Number: 83
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 11:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

whether or not these kids are smart or know people is beside the point. these kids usually come from good schools that were hard to get into, regardless of what major they pursued in college.

once your on the job, none of that matters. the amount of stress and pressure you need to work under on wall st. is enormous. a 60 hour week would be a light one and when your talking about multibillion dollar deals, you can't afford to screw up.

wall street is a competetive place. you make a mistake, the economy goes bad, you lose your bonus or you lose your job. yeah these people make a lot of money but there is a lot of risk.

the fact is this, the days of union jobs with perfect job security for uneducated folk is over. its hard for people here to wrap their head around it. if you can't adapt, you're dead.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 2271
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 12:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^LOL.

I must have struck a nerve. That's all well and good, but you still haven't challenged what I was saying. I pulled 80 hour weeks in COLLEGE while the rest of these pompous assholes with these English and Psychology degrees were at kegger parties from Thursday night through Sunday. They are beneficiaries of circumstance and it doesn't take anyone special to do most of their jobs.
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Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme
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Username: Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme

Post Number: 84
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 12:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

not at all actually. i have a job on wall st coming up and i know how hard i had to work to get there and i've got the hours and students loans to prove it.

i just find it funny that the only people who hold these views are people in detroit. everyone else gets that the world is competitive and that every day you have to bring your A game otherwise your gone. the mindsight that so many detroiters hold is antiquated.

im just happy i don't hold the same views otherwise i'd sound like you.
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Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme
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Username: Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme

Post Number: 85
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 12:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

and a response to the expected reply.

i would rather sound elitist than sound bitter.
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Umcs
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Username: Umcs

Post Number: 400
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 12:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually Onlypeople, I'd be more inclined to trust a guy from Detroit who has made it legitimately over a guy from New York with my money and/or to be a head above the rest in business acumen.

You have to know exactly what you are doing in Michigan and Detroit in order to succeed and you have got to have your A game because you do not get money thrown at you for piss-poor business models by venture capitalists, equity groups, or any other type of investor. You have to struggle to make it and if you fail here, you do not get a second chance. You screw up once in Detroit and you better ship your butt to New York, Chicago, or San Fran where they don't blackball you because of one failure.

This city is more brutal that you can possibly imagine. It makes New York look like a child's sandbox.
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Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme
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Username: Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme

Post Number: 86
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 12:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i agree in some ways. I've actually had this discussion before.

Alot of people think they can go to a small market like detroit and clean up (esp. when their coming from a good place). but detroit is unbelievably provincial and there just isn't that much activity. for an outsider, the natives here just won't let you in. and since it's not exactly bustling, there people here chasing less and less.

otoh, nyc has a lot going on and so on. but, nyc is competetive for other reasons. it has the best and brightest. and it also has the most ambitious. it is the most objectively competive place in the country. you are wrong to say that your allowed to make mistakes in nyc or that you don't get blackballed. you couldn't be further from the truth. if you lose a step, someone will be there to kick you and take your place.

they are both competetive, i'll give you that. but the reasons why they are are totally different. detroit is because its insular and people are quick to defend their increasingly shrinking piece of the pie. nys is competetive due to the sheer number of people, the fact that those people are the best and most driven, and that structurally, it demands so much (there is no other place in the world where the 70 hr work week is norm).
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Cinderpath
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Username: Cinderpath

Post Number: 292
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 1:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mr Wall Street, who does not know when to use capitol letters and spell, but likes to point out others shortcomings writes: “i just find it funny that the only people who hold these views are people in detroit. everyone else gets that the world is competitive and that every day you have to bring your A game otherwise your gone. the mindsight that so many detroiters hold is antiquated.”

-Then why are you here? Your pomposity has not wooed anyone to your view. Go write at a place where people want to hear what you have to say, and you can give a toast of your own bathwater. This perfect place might in fact be your own mind. Have a fun time on Wall St. playing your "A Game". (?) Be sure to mention this on your first day on the job junior, you'll go far. You won't impress them, but will make an impression on them.

Another tip: don't go into sales, you'll score well however in the game of how NOT to win friends and influence people.

-“im just happy i don't hold the same views otherwise i'd sound like you.”

I don't think you’re really happy; otherwise you wouldn't sound like you do, besides if sounding like “us” involves better grammar and spelling, and people have courtesy and respect for each other, I’ll take it as a complement…..

Thanks for the humor....Back to the "A Game".
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Umcs
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Username: Umcs

Post Number: 403
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 1:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Onlypeople,

You are obviously young. New York in the 70's and 80's was not the shining beacon it is currently. Even now, it's not the lighthouse you seem to think it is. New York is not London. Look at a poll of financial gurus on an international basis and London beats NY hands down 2 to 1 as the place where the best and brightest go.

Sometime in the future you'll learn. Wisdom isn't gained through education; it's gained through doing. I'm not going to argue with you further on the point of New York as you clearly have staked a position and intend on defending it as an advocate. You probably should have looked at litigation over transactional work. You've learned the zealous advocacy part much more effectively than the "getting to yes" part of your legal education.
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Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme
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Username: Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme

Post Number: 87
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 1:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i understand that there is all this nyc v. london talk. ultimately they are both very similar and they do the same amount of ipos and deal flow, etc. that said, when talking about americans, the overwhelming majority are heading to nyc and not london.

im not going to compromise with someone so obviously out of touch. m&a work involves similarly situated parties- that is why compromise comes out (which is not always the case). we are not similary situated parties.
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Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme
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Username: Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme

Post Number: 88
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 1:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

cinderpath-

i write here in the hopes of trying to convince at least one person to my view. i understand the overwhelming majority of people here are not oging to agree with me. the mindsight in detroit among the older folk is ingrained.

I'm hoping to create dialogue so we can move detroit into the future and that we can collectively figure out what we really need to fix.

People everywhere else want you to bring your best. letting people who you work for that you are motivated and dedicated is actually a good thing (of course you have to actually step up and do it). people on wall st. have my view. thats the reason they work insane hours at squeeze money out of everything.

are you a teacher? what do you know about stepping up to anything? enjoy your days that end at 2:30 and getting your summers off.
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Spiritofdetroit
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Username: Spiritofdetroit

Post Number: 751
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 1:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your comments are some of the most condescending, arrogant, insulting, and offending I have ever seen on this forum. You are a disgrace to Law and the Univ. of Chi. for sure. To suggest that teachers are idiots, your "boy genius" entitlement attitude, with your apparent lack of general knowledge is ridiculous. You are going to lead some kind of sad, sad life. Sure, you might mike 17 million dollars, but you will never be happy - and with the kind of sentiments you have expressed here - good.
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Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme
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Username: Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme

Post Number: 89
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 1:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

truthfully, i plan on coming back to detroit and get things rolling here and desperately want this city to come back. but there are needed changes and they are needed now.

forgive me if i don't put much weight in wisdom created by age and experience. especially by the folk here. you guys had a chance to do something here and instead squandered it. on your watch detroit fell apart. how does your wisdom gained from "doing" wht you've done here give you any credibility to attack what I hope to see in the future of detroit?
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Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme
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Username: Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme

Post Number: 91
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 1:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Your comments are some of the most condescending, arrogant, insulting, and offending I have ever seen on this forum. You are a disgrace to Law and the Univ. of Chi. for sure. To suggest that teachers are idiots, your "boy genius" entitlement attitude, with your apparent lack of general knowledge is ridiculous. You are going to lead some kind of sad, sad life. Sure, you might mike 17 million dollars, but you will never be happy - and with the kind of sentiments you have expressed here - good."

to be perfectly honest, I am outraged at the people here who defend the status quo. It's what got us here. People keep spouting how much they love this place, but that's just empty emotional rhetoric. Forgeting about my attack on teachers, I'll admit it's a bit much, the fact is this: Detroit cannot afford to resist change.
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Crawford
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Username: Crawford

Post Number: 175
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 1:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LOL UMCs, NYC handily beats London for finance. It is THE world center of finance. London is a strong, but distant, second. It only leads in currency.

The best and brightest finance minds are in NYC, because all the banks are headquartered here, and the pay is higher than London.

London has only two decent-sized investment bank world headquarters: HSBC and Barclays, and Barclays will soon move its world HQ to Amsterdam (ABN AMRO merger).

NYC has world HQ for Goldman Sachs, Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, Citigroup, Chase, Lehman, Bear Stearns. Even Credit Suisse, which is "officially" based in Zurich, has its CEO and all of its top I Banking talent at 11 Madison in Manhattan.

Lazard, traditionally the fanciest investment bank in the world, is HQ in NYC, with smaller offices in London and Paris.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 2275
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 1:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's also funny that he assumed I live in Detroit, when in fact, I live in New York. But anyhow, as he hasn't actually lived here and experienced this game for himself, I'm just gonna go back to spectating on this discussion.
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Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme
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Username: Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme

Post Number: 92
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 1:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

already got a job lined after spending my summer there. seen it myself. got friend alls over banking and law firms. but yeah, i got no idea what im talking about.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 2276
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 1:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

but yeah, i got no idea what im talking about.



You're right about that.
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Swingline
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Username: Swingline

Post Number: 961
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 1:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Onlypeople has earned my respect, if only for the fact that he has staked out a position and defended it against multiple adversaries.

As for his accusation of bitterness driving certain opposing opinions. Well, with this one, perhaps so. But if so, it's certainly not because of an income disparity with the Wall Street types, which thankfully isn't all that large. But it's true, my buttons tend to get pushed when I encounter a masters of the universe mentality.

One other thing. I haven't checked the non-Detroit forum, but has there been a thread posted recently by any future Wall Street lawyers that debates the relative benefits of bombing Iran? After all, isn't Iran -- and the Middle East destabilization it enjoys producing -- a threat to our ability to continue the activity that enables the highest and best use of American brainpower, i.e., doing deals. Well, bomb the shit outta them, I say. Manhattan condo prices are at risk.
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Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme
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Username: Onlypeoplewhohatethemselveshateme

Post Number: 93
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 1:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

this will be the last piece i state for a while. i've got exams coming up and can't afford to spend anymore time here.

I honestly apologize if i sound like a prick. I showed my so this thread and she said that, although i had the winning argument, i sounded like a jackass (the teacher comment was certainly unwarranted). so i do truly apologize.

What i do want to say is this. I don't know what the ages are of the people on this forum but i've heard enough of people defending the prior actions of the city and the continued moves they make that maintain the status quo. My age and "experience " is irrelevant when I'm stating cited facts. I am going to capitalize the following not because im shouting but because i want anyone who scrolls through this trhead to clearly see this.

For those who have been here for awhile and defend the past and it's continuance:

ON YOUR WATCH, THE CITY FELL APART. UNDER YOUR CARE, THE CITY WAS DESTROYED. WITH YOUR GUIDANCE, THE CITY BECAME IRRELEVANT.

you turned away from trying to retain human capital for the short term benefit.
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Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline

Post Number: 962
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 2:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Onlypeople, good luck with your finals. I am serious. I know that some law school final exams count for 100% of your grade. Lots of pressure and very stressful.

Oh, and by the way, good job in your last post of setting up strawmen and knocking them down. At a rigorous school like UofChi Law, will that get you a B? I'm not so sure. It doesn't really matter though. You got the NYC job already.
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Belleislerunner
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Username: Belleislerunner

Post Number: 388
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 2:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Only,

I wish you luck in NYC. It will be an experience you never forget. But keep in mind, the people in Detroit (friends/family) will be more impressed with your job/status than people in NYC. You went to U Chicago and have family in Detroit. Snicker. Laugh. If you had a place in the Hamptons, summer homes on Jupiter Island or a cabin in Nantucket people might be more impressed. Brace yourself.

I think your biggest culture shock will be what you deem a lot of money (150K+) vs the millions others make. To people in Michigan, that's a lofty amount. That's minimum wage in NYC. It's a large sea of 8 million fish and you're a very tiny minnow.

But I'll drop you some fish food =)

Best of luck!
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Ohudson
Member
Username: Ohudson

Post Number: 295
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 2:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In NYC, the cost of living is 118% higher than Detroit. So $150K in NYC is about the equivalent of about $65K-$70K in Detroit. That's decent, but not a whole lot.
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Umcs
Member
Username: Umcs

Post Number: 404
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 3:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Only,

I'm actually a recent transplant TO Detroit from elsewhere. I've lived in major cities in the U.S. and abroad, including my preferred city of London. (Here's looking at you Crawford for my bias).

I'm not 100% sure of your ties to Detroit but the inference from others appears that you are originally from the area. I do not nor have I ever defended the "status quo" in Detroit and I do not believe that the vast majority of people on this board, or even living in the city, prefer the status quo.

With respect to the decline of this city, I'd posit that it started in the Great Depression, not in the 50's or 60's. The heyday of Detroit, when it was known as the Paris of the Midwest, was just before our "best and brightest" in New York single handedly brought down the financial system of the world. The skyscraper curse holds true for Detroit, as it did for Kuala Lampur, Taipei, and numerous other cities.

I do recognize that you are staking a position and advocating for it but I also believe that the points you make are mitigated severely by the tone and attitude that is displayed in your postings. You'll fit in out there in New York. Enjoy.

Crawford,

I'd agree with you somewhat. Some of the "best and brightest" are in New York over London. Capital markets are of course, justifiably centered on New York. However, I think New York has a certain number of "candles" and a lot of "mirrors" reflecting the brilliance of those extremely intelligent and knowledgable people.
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Bearinabox
Member
Username: Bearinabox

Post Number: 412
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 4:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess I have trouble comprehending your mindset, Only. A job on Wall Street making millions and stabbing people in the back sounds like absolute hell to me. I'd make a career of flipping burgers before I'd do that, and not because I'm dumb or lazy.
As for the comments about older people being okay with the status quo, I think you're pretty far off on that one. NOBODY likes the status quo, except a few local politicians who've made careers out of race-baiting and divisiveness. Besides, I'm not old. I'm probably younger than you.
I don't oppose your ideas because I want to keep everything the same, I oppose your ideas because I think they'll make things worse (and don't say they can't get worse, they can). Eminent domain, for instance. It was a dumb idea last time we tried it, and it's a dumb idea now. If and when you come back to Detroit, I hope all of us here rip you to shreds. Not because we're narrow-minded, backward or provincial, but because you have bad ideas, and you're an asshole to boot. Have a nice day.

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