  Pjazz Member Username: Pjazz Post Number: 93 Registered: 04-2005 |
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/a pps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2007 1105/SUB/311050008 The need is here. Retailers just need to know there are consumers willing to spend money in DETROIT! | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 812 Registered: 09-2007 |
How can we get the idea across to these retailers has been the big question for years nows. | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 507 Registered: 02-2006 |
Easy. Starbucks is a lot different from a Best Buy or a Kroger. Most of its products won't walk out the front door before being paid for. Which like it or not is a HUGE and valid concern about the city of Detroit to major retailers. Starbucks is sort of like a pay first gas station. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2607 Registered: 12-2004 |
You know, we could spend an inordinate amount of time and energy trying to convince the big national retailers that they should set up shop here. Or we can say, screw them and put our emphasis on building up the local retailers who are already here. If the national folks show up, they can join the party. If they don't, it's just more money for Detroiters. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 813 Registered: 09-2007 |
"Or we can say, screw them and put our emphasis on building up the local retailers who are already here." We enter the critical Marketing situation at that point. The retail owners in Detroit must do their part as well. People don't want to shop at junky Family Dollars, grocery stores lacking variety and freshness, or trashy stores with poor service. That's why I unfortunately do any of my big shopping outside city limits. (Message edited by DetroitRise on November 22, 2007) | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 1296 Registered: 11-2003 |
^I agree that local stores need to do their part too. There is little or no advertising nor promotion done by these owners. Then I am sure someone will bring up how expensive it is to market and promote and my reply to that is, if you can't spend money to support yourself and maintain and increase your customer base, then you should not be in business. The local spots (some not all) really don't offer what people want other than their core client base which keep the lights on. Bring variety, freshness, and customer service to your establishment and PROMOTE THOSE THINGS and people will come. Family Dollar and beauty supply etc don't count. | ||
Urbanpioneer Member Username: Urbanpioneer Post Number: 12 Registered: 10-2007 |
Sorry to say there is PLENTY of local promoting, as is evidenced by the circulars from no-less than FIVE independent grocery stores and the mid-week yellow bag filled with more circulars left on my door step or rubber banded-to my porch railing once a week. Why isn't this considered littering? | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 1298 Registered: 11-2003 |
Those little yellow bags have ads for grocery stores, cell phone shops, and food joints. I am speaking in terms of retail, furniture, etc... You can't really go Christmas shopping at the places in those ads. | ||
Craig Member Username: Craig Post Number: 502 Registered: 02-2007 |
The real pros have entire staffs or contract with agencies to forever on the prowl for locations with profit potential. Make/break factors for retail include local economic conditions (# households with at least $X income within a specified radius), infrastructure, potential liability, shrinkage/loss potential, competition, and the ability of the corporate mothership to support a locale with product & oversight. Anyone with corporate-level retail experience who knows different should weigh in now. The fact that the pros do not cut corners on their site-selection research AND the fact that Detroit is largely devoid of national-level retail speaks volumes about the real potential today. I believe that Brian is correct re: Starbucks. The big guys look at the City through their crystal balls and see a combination of empty tills and horrific shrinkage. Sorry, but only unsophisticated locals are flocking to invest because the big guys are sitting out. | ||
Pjazz Member Username: Pjazz Post Number: 94 Registered: 04-2005 |
Other big cities have and deal with shop lifters the only difference is the negative attitudes that Detroit continually has to deal with. Staples is here, Home Depot is here, and as far as I know making a profit. Pretty soon big retial won't be able to ignore the demand of consumers in the D. | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 508 Registered: 02-2006 |
Thank you Craig. I don't understand why so many on this site are so quick to assume that there are "other" reasons for big businesses to stay out of Detroit. Big companies don't care whos money they take. They just want to make a profit. If these companies thought they could make a profit with a store in Detroit you better believe there would be one on Detroit. | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 504 Registered: 10-2005 |
It takes a long time for national retail to gain interest in a place that lost it. I am now in Baltimore and for years, we suffered the same fate as Detroit-hardly any retail and few if any national retail. But, over time and believe me, it was a long time, they slowly started taking an interest in setting up shop. I think it started with the drug stores and then the grocery stores. Once they saw there was a market, then they pounced. Now we have Filenes, Best Buy and a lot of other chains moving back into the downtown area. The neighborhoods have also been picking up with new Targets and Marshalls opening up. We even got a national movie theater chain back in the city. Thankfully, I no longer have to drive to the burbs to shop. But, I want to stress it did take a long time and also tons of people moving into the downtown area and the surrounding neighborhoods around downtown clinched it. It will happen in Detroit also as more folks move into the city. I still patronize our local coffee shop (Donnas) moreso than Starbucks though because she had the insight to pop up shops all over town before the nationals came in. | ||
Rob_in_warren Member Username: Rob_in_warren Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2007 |
I think these companies are saying "close enough" when it comes to retail in Detroit. They look to Harperwoods, Roseville, Madison Hghts, Southfield, and Dearborn as shopping for Detroiters. Warren is kinda in the same boat. We have tremendous buying power in this city, yet not one major mall. If I want a pair of pants from Old Navy, Being from the center of Warren, I've got to drive 10-15 minutes depending on what retail center I want to support. I can buy clothes from Meijer (we just got a meijer last year), but I honestly can't think of one other place in Warren were I can buy everyday mens clothes. Detroit is unique because it is so huge and devoid of any national retail. The problem is same, that people in Metro Detroit who have money can will drive a long way to shop in brand name stores. | ||
Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement Post Number: 44 Registered: 08-2007 |
Maybe the question isn't just can Detroit support retail, but maybe would people from the 'burbs come to Detroit to spend money. Quick example, the Meijer store in Livonia. One would be a fool to think all of their sales come from Livonia. They have a lot of shoppers from Detroit, Redford, Farmington Hills, Dearborn Heights, etc. In short, Livonia doesn't solely support that retail, but neighboring communities support it as well. Maybe one problem getting retail in Detroit is not just would Detroiters support but maybe people from outside Detroit would not come in and support as well, meaning Detroiters would have to be the sole support for that store. Rarely when a major chain be successful in a community if it is solely up to just that community. Maybe it's not just the shoplifting, but possibly a perceived danger that people outside of Detroit feel that prevent them from coming to Detroit to shop. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2609 Registered: 12-2004 |
quote:quote: I'm afraid you have missed my point entirely. My comments were addressed to the broader public policy questions. Why should we spend hundreds of millions of our scarce tax dollars to lure in businesses from out-of-state while doing nothing for the entrepreneurs who are here already? Are jobs created by someone from Michigan less important than those created by someone from Oklahoma? If we ask all of the local entrepreneurs to a) pay high taxes and insurance rates, b) settle for (at best) mediocre public services and c) subsidize our efforts to bring in out-of-state businesses to compete with them, should it be a bit surprising that have a less than stellar view of their own community? quote: Or it could be the simple fact that they're waiting for someone to hand them a multi-million dollar check for moving in. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2426 Registered: 07-2004 |
Good points, Crumbled_pavement. You bring up one of many of Detroit's catch-22s. National chain-stores stay out of Detroit, but Detroiters want to shop at national chain-stores, even when they're outside the city. So, as a result, the national chain stores build outside the city, like in Livonia, and attract not only Livonia residents, but Detroit residents, Redford residents, etc... With that scenario, why would a national chain-store feel compelled to put a store in Detroit? The answer for Detroiters is to create grass-roots stores that are attractive enough to keep them from leaving the city to shop. The loss of Detroit shoppers to the suburban stores, might force the national chains to come back to the city, but it's a scenario that is decades away. Again, a Detroit catch-22. | ||
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle Post Number: 252 Registered: 10-2006 |
Before we leap headlong into huge retail perhaps we need to concentrate on small. Appealing to this new influx of young college kids might be key, but it takes coordination. The issue Ive found with Detroit retail is a lack of contiguous, inexpensive shop fronts in a populated area. If someone could get an area of 3 or 4 very close store fonts in the midtown area that were inexpensive we might create a destination. Vintage shops, record shops, shoe stores and similar we have all of these but not in a clear grouping where one can go in and out of shops. Belmont in Chicago has a nice little district of these sort of shops and their all close to each other. Start small. | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 2225 Registered: 11-2004 |
You know, I hear a lot of folks on here talking about supporting local retail, but my store, Mezzanine, has been open six months and I am pretty sure I haven't seen most of you come through. Maybe Christmas is a good time for people to explore the great independent shops in Detroit that are not crappy, that merchandise well, that have nice spaces and friendly good service. My store, Bureau of Urban Living, Sole Sisters, Greatest of All Time, Spectacles, Studio Couture, Vera Jane, Pangborn Design and many other shops work hard to carry quality merchandise and create an experience you won't find in the chain stores. There are fun ways to do this, too. I had a couple from Toledo in the store today who read Detroit Home's "Shopping Along Woodward" holiday shopping guide and they were making a day of stopping in all the places listed there, from downtown to Birmingham. All of them are independent, cool shops that sell stuff you don't find at the mall. "Shop Detroit" is next Saturday, and that's another way to check out all the retail that downtown and New Center have to offer. http://detroitsynergy.org/proj ects/shopdetroit As for locating stores near each other - don't think small retailers don't discuss that with each other. There are bigger issues than the will of retailers to locate near each other at play here - the availability of contiguous quality space and the rental rates for retail spaces downtown among them. I am lucky - the corner of Broadway and Grand River has several cool shops all located together, and a coffee shop as well. It's the closest thing to a cool shopping neighborhood as you will find in the greater downtown area right now. | ||
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle Post Number: 253 Registered: 10-2006 |
Dial4, I agree 100% with the "the availability of contiguous quality space and the rental rates for retail spaces downtown among them." being an issue. Also forgive me, but the prices of things at your shop aren't exactly in my price range, although you do have a very nice website which i visit and dream about furnishing my home with.ha. Bureau is a great place to pick up smaller more affordable household items though, and you cant beat those city bird soaps. | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 423 Registered: 06-2005 |
Its all about theft. No major retailer is going to come into the city and know that more stuff ic going to walk out unpaid for as opposed to pay for. Would you open a retail store when you know you are going to be ripped blind? NOT ME! DETROIT=CRIME!•••• When That is under control, maybe then major retailers will take a second look. | ||
Pjazz Member Username: Pjazz Post Number: 96 Registered: 04-2005 |
Unlike you other retailers feel differently, as I have read above. Living in the city you have to have a positive attitude. The reason why a lot of us on this board want large retail now is because we've lived so long in the city with out it. In East English Village where I live. We make over 100k a year. We want to spend our money in the city. For Detroit to have a come back I think having Large retail will attract more home and condo buyers, I also think they can be supported by the people who live here now. Theft is going to happen, but proper planning can make a company still succeed. Dialh4hipster I agree there are some great stores open right now, but more stores are still needed. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 819 Registered: 09-2007 |
Detriot has 1onedefinite pro for retail. That's the residents and income. There more cons however. Your customers aren't going to shop at places with shrinkage, poor service, poor sanitation or anything. Retailers aren't going to heavily invest at locations that are getting ripped off (by whatever) because of the additional cost. Most Detroiters are aware of the situation in terms of safety, so I don't think it's as big of a factor. However, theft crime is the root of it. It's all a snowball effect. Retailers invest in an area, but cost of maintenance and thefts are high. That will lead to an increase in food prices or shrinkage in store variety and service (like caged grocery cart bars). Customers wil gradually cease to patronize them because they're shrinking in variety and services. The retailers eventually will cease to earn a profit because of the decrease in money spending customers and in the end just give up on it. (Message edited by DetroitRise on November 23, 2007) | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 820 Registered: 09-2007 |
Let's ask ourselves this: -Detroit residents, are you going to shop at a market that only offers one brand of whatever food with a rotten meat and produce department? -Detroit retail owners, are you going to invest heavily on a place with a high cost of maintenance and/or isn't profitable? | ||
Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement Post Number: 45 Registered: 08-2007 |
Detroitrise: "Detriot has 1onedefinite pro for retail. That's the residents and income. There more cons however. Your customers aren't going to shop at places with shrinkage, poor service, poor sanitation or anything. Retailers aren't going to heavily invest at locations that are getting ripped off (by whatever) because of the additional cost. Most Detroiters are aware of the situation in terms of safety, so I don't think it's as big of a factor. However, theft crime is the root of it. It's all a snowball effect. Retailers invest in an area, but cost of maintenance and thefts are high. That will lead to an increase in food prices or shrinkage in store variety and service (like caged grocery cart bars). Customers wil gradually cease to patronize them because they're shrinking in variety and services. The retailers eventually will cease to earn a profit because of the decrease in money spending customers and in the end just give up on it." You make a very good point. However, how come the rate of theft is so dramatically different within a few blocks? For example, an Office Depot can exist on Greenfield one block north of 8 Mile and maintain. However, if that exact same store was one block south of 8 Mile it'd be robbed daily? What about the Kroger at Wyoming and 8 Mile? Are Detroiters really that terrified to go across one street to steal? Is the security or neighborhood that dramatically better right across the street? Are the demographics really that different? The K-Mart on Telegraph and 8 Mile exists inside the city. In fact, if I'm correct, they moved from either Southfield or Farmington to that location. Theft is an issue, but people act like there is some magical air inside of Detroit's city limits that just make theft mystically appear as if it can't exist right outside of Detroit. (Message edited by Crumbled_pavement on November 23, 2007) | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 822 Registered: 09-2007 |
That's a good question that no one can seem to figure out. Theft isn't an issue all over the city. However, with labels such as "The Most Dangerous City" and a bad at best police department, the potential for crime in the city is greater than a relatively safe suburb with a good police department. Think of it as one day when they're forecasting severe weather for SE Michigan severe weather. There is a potential for it everywhere, but not everyone will see it. None the less, you should keep a watchful eye to the weather conditions and sky (and be prepared for anything). The retailers do the same thing. Also, 8 Mile and telegraph is relatively close to the border (I wouldn't be surpirsed if they had a Redford or Southfield Postal Code). Along these border areas, I guess things can go either way. That was the case with Bel-Air, Belmont, Kroger, Dunkin Donuts, and other places. | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 2226 Registered: 11-2004 |
Mdoyle, stopping in to check out a store doesn't commit you to buying, but it does guarantee you can speak knowledgeably about the breadth of new retail in Detroit. As for price points, it's true my merchandise differs from that of Bureau. But I also have dozens of things in the store under $50, a good portion of them under $35. I know they are not all listed on the website, because the website is designed primarily to engage people for furniture sales nationwide, but had you stopped in the store to check it out, you would realize the notion "I can't afford anything in that store" is really a myth. Plus my store is really pretty. The underlying point here is that one of problems that arise when people speak of Detroit retail is that broad generalizations are cited far more frequently than specific, true facts. | ||
Russix Member Username: Russix Post Number: 55 Registered: 11-2006 |
Its all about parking. Without mass transit Downtown Detroit has no way to attract a consumer base large enough to support a large retailer. Could you imagine paying $10 to park to go to Hudson's? Neither can any major retailer, thats why they are fanned out into the suburbs and conglomerate around freeways. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2427 Registered: 07-2004 |
The reason a Kroger can exist on 8 Mile, one block north of Detroit and not in Detroit, is because it's in Oakland County. And the word around Detroit is that if you commit a crime in Oakland County, you are more likely to do more time than if you commit a crime in Wayne County/Detroit. Don't know if it's true, but that's what I've heard people say for years. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 827 Registered: 09-2007 |
Also, there's a huge difference in response time as well. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2428 Registered: 07-2004 |
Now, another Detroit catch-22 regarding retail is this: in the neighborhoods where the income is higher, there is no room to build large retail. Look at Palmer Park, Sherwood Forest, and the University District area. Where could you put a Target or Best Buy? These stores require hugh amounts of real estate just for parking. Think about how many homes you would have to tear down just to make room for these stores. I don't think the judges, lawyers, doctors, and politicians living in those homes are going to be OK with bulldozing their homes and the neighborhood for retail. It's not going to happen. Also, take a look at the mile roads in Detroit such as 5 Mile(Fenkell), 6 Mile(McNichols), and 7 Mile, and 8 Mile. Homes are right behind the retail stores and businesses along these streets. Again, stores like Target and Best Buy need room for the store itself as well as room for parking. You would have to take out a whole city block, in terms of depth, and three or four blocks, in terms of width, just to fit in one of these stores on the mile roads. The very people that you would be displacing are the ones that have the income to buy at those stores. Now, the other side of Detroit's retail catch-22 is this: in the areas of the city where you have the real estate to build large retail centers, you don't have the residents with the income to support them. All of the city's "urban prairies" could support large developments of somthing. Housing is what is usually thought of first because that's what used to be there. However, think about the neighborhoods that are largely vacant along the Jefferson, Conner, Kercheval, and Alter roads area(part of this area is known as Fox Creek). That land would be big enough for a huge shopping center, but on three sides of it you have many residents who live at or below the poverty line. Are the folks from Palmer Woods going to go all the way over to the border of Detroit and the Grosse Pointes to shop? No, because they're closer to Northland, Southfield(Tel-Twelve), and Fairlane. So, with the exception of the Grosse Pointers, there wouldn't be enough support from the residents in the Fox Creek area to keep large retail going. So, the retail dilemma in Detroit continues. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 831 Registered: 09-2007 |
That's true Royce, a very good point. How does Chicago bare with this issue though? They have twice as much density but stilll get by when it comes to national chains. Wealthy businesses and people will do whatever it takes to get their profit no matter what's in the way. So apparently, Indian Village and Palmer Park couldn't be that demanding of an area. Most cities have their big box retailers along major avenues. The problem is, our avenues are so poverish that it's pitiful. | ||
Supergay Member Username: Supergay Post Number: 117 Registered: 05-2006 |
I think if you can get the land together to build a megachurch, you can get the land together to build a Target. | ||
Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement Post Number: 46 Registered: 08-2007 |
Royce: "The reason a Kroger can exist on 8 Mile, one block north of Detroit and not in Detroit, is because it's in Oakland County. And the word around Detroit is that if you commit a crime in Oakland County, you are more likely to do more time than if you commit a crime in Wayne County/Detroit. Don't know if it's true, but that's what I've heard people say for years." Detroitrise: "Also, there's a huge difference in response time as well." I disagree. I doubt the response time from Royal Oak Township is all that good. Do they even have their own police department? Or is the state and county still patrolling there? And if Wayne is so soft on crime, how come retail can exist on Telegraph, right across the border of Detroit? There are a couple of dealerships on Telegraph near 96 right across the street from Detroit. But Wayne county is soft on crime so they should be getting robbed/vandalized daily. Royce, on your other point about space, I agree with you on that. I think there are many reasons for a lack of retail in Detroit, including taxes and red tape, yet most people want to focus on only one reason. | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 646 Registered: 04-2006 |
DialH4Hipster! You own Mezzanine? Wow! I didn't know that. I've seen you posting on here for so long, and have been meaning to come by the store for so long. I actually work with Claire (At Bureau) quite a bit with my sister's and my line of products (citybird) - anyway, i'll stop by soon. - Andy | ||
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle Post Number: 255 Registered: 10-2006 |
Dialh4hipster- I too will have to stop in. Excuse my assumption about your store. | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2611 Registered: 12-2004 |
quote: So go to any of the places around town that validate your parking with a purchase. What to go anywhere else in downtown? The People Mover is there for you and it's cheap. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 1048 Registered: 06-2004 |
Why are we complaining about no Big Retail? In SF, they built a quality of life on small stores with character, and vehimently opppose Home Depot, Target etc. I'm not sure why small stores has to mean bad stores. There were so many great little grocery stores in SF with the flowers and produce in bins out in front of the store every morning. It was always such a pleasure to pick up groceries walking home from the train. | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 948 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Ray makes an excellent point. The most desirable communities tend to have a conspicuous lack of big box stores, strip malls, and large chain retail stores. There are no big-box stores in Grosse Pointe or Birmingham. There are no strip malls featuring large national retailers in the downtown areas of Royal Oak, Ferndale or Rochester. | ||
Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement Post Number: 47 Registered: 08-2007 |
Erikd said: "Ray makes an excellent point. The most desirable communities tend to have a conspicuous lack of big box stores, strip malls, and large chain retail stores. There are no big-box stores in Grosse Pointe or Birmingham. There are no strip malls featuring large national retailers in the downtown areas of Royal Oak, Ferndale or Rochester." Very good point Erikd. Question: How would you compare Detroit's retail environment to that of GP, RO, and Birmingham? | ||
Nickstone Member Username: Nickstone Post Number: 22 Registered: 02-2006 |
One addition that agrees in another way... Grosse Pointe does indeed have a Staples (at least last time I checked) but they have it built into the character of its surroundings so well you don't mind it being there... a lot can be learned by watching Andres Duaney's "nu-urbanizm" lectures (new urbanism) on youtube... I know it sounds boring but trust me you'll appreciate it if you've taken the time to read this topic! | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 6830 Registered: 02-2004 |
Big Box stores usually want to place their large stores in land that has more spaces, cheaper land and heavier traffic volumes. Detroit can support a any major retail outlet. It comes to a question of high crime, security, traffic, parking, ethnic demographics and land space. | ||
Mike Member Username: Mike Post Number: 1140 Registered: 11-2003 |
metro detroiters always complain about parking. have you people ever been to other cities? why does detroit have to have a parking lot or structure right next to the point of interest? walk people, walk. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 839 Registered: 09-2007 |
We're spoiled by the automobile, that's why. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 840 Registered: 09-2007 |
One important thing to mention though. This is a special type of national retail, rapid food service. This type of retail has been profitable and successful in Detroit for eons (especially when you factor in our unhealthy eating habits). Not to mention, many of these national rapid food service retailers are franchised. So they're the ones that decide to operate locations in the city and the ones making a profit. However, the corporation will have their name on the buildings and feature their products. (Message edited by DetroitRise on November 25, 2007) | ||
Pjazz Member Username: Pjazz Post Number: 97 Registered: 04-2005 |
When I read some of these post I wonder who actually lives in Detroit and sees the lots available that I see. Tiger stadium has a huge space available. A lot of these areas still have big tax breaks available because of where there located. At St Jean and Jefferson there's a large vacant Farmer Jack that was and still is a great area for business. A new home land security building is about to be built across the street and other stores are trying to hang on for someone to fill that anchor store. Alot of small stores need a larger store next to them to attract customers there way. So if you think Detroit has nothing to offer retail look again. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 843 Registered: 09-2007 |
Both Home Depot and Meijer I heard were once looking at the land on St. Jean and Jeffferson, so it's a pretty desirable piece of land. Royce pretty much describe a lot of the issues with that though. |
