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Buyamerican
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Username: Buyamerican

Post Number: 223
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 1:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If I didn't know any better, it's not that you won't buy American, you're almost sounding anti-American. I'm beginning to wonder just who is on this forum.

I'd be very interested to know where all you pro foreign are employed and who signs your paychecks.

I sincerely hope you all have a large nestegg set aside for the future, which looks pretty grim right now. Of course, if you don't, you can all call upon China or Japan to take care of you...right?



(Message edited by Buyamerican on November 24, 2007)
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Wazootyman
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Username: Wazootyman

Post Number: 287
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 2:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bussey, but here's the problem:

It's easy to suggest those out of a job go back to school and learn a new trade. Unfortunately, even with the best intentions, not everybody is capable of contributing in the new 'information economy'. I'm not suggesting welfare for the stupid, but you can't reasonably say that just because wages are cheaper elsewhere it makes no sense to maintain production domestically. What are the people who are really good with their hands, but not "A" students going to do?

Look at the country's current GDP (or for 2005, anyway), and you'll see that while only 11% is in pure "manufacturing", I'd argue that a majority of the remainder is from business directly or indirectly supporting it. The items just below manufacturing percentage-wise are real estate, government and financing. Scary. Then again, I am an engineer, not an economics whiz, so please do feel free to correct any incorrect assumptions I've made.

Nobody can dispute that we're stuck in a 'global economy' now, but the sad part is that as consumers, we've driven production overseas. Look at "Black Friday", for example. Sales, coupons, deals, low-prices and foreign-made junk dominated purchases made yesterday without a doubt. People want the largest quantity of low-priced goods they can get without considering the true cost. Given the choice, they'd probably opt for the China-made product that costs 1/4 as much instead of a USA-made equivalent. Never mind that their neighbor works at the factory.

I find it ironic, for example, that Wal-Mart's new slogan is "Save Money. Live Better." What do they mean by that - unless they are suggesting that they're raising the standard of living in China? By producing goods at reduced wages overseas, we are lowering the cost of goods to ourselves at the present, but destroying our economic future. We can't all sell and finance products made overseas without generating new money from manufacturing ourselves.

You can't compare the purchase of domestically-made electronics and clothes to automobiles. The former is almost non-existent (with the exception of very high-end brands), while the latter is a no-brainer.
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Bussey
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Username: Bussey

Post Number: 620
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 2:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Are listening to what I'm saying" - Brady

OMG

WTF

And if you must know I work for a British Company that has half of its operations based here in the States. Last time I checked my paychecks came from across the pond
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Crystal
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Username: Crystal

Post Number: 66
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 3:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with Buyamerican about the insensitive remark during the parade. A well known local personality such as Devin Scillian should be held to a higher standard.

I'm surprised there isn't more indignation about it on this forum.
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 832
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 3:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe because we're more liberal about the situation.
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Crystal
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Username: Crystal

Post Number: 67
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 3:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What does that mean? Was Scillian's comment OK? Or was it not OK, but it didn't do harm so not a big deal? Or you would not have made that comment, but it's not worth objecting to?
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Buyamerican
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Username: Buyamerican

Post Number: 224
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 3:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's not a matter of liberal, conservative, or whatever...it's a matter of right or wrong. He was hosting a Thanksgiving tradition in the City of Detroit and he made a crude remark. Knocking off a 7-11 isn't a joking matter. Ask someone who has been at the other end of a gun or knife at a convenience store.
Don't you think that Detroit has been bashed enough? To have a TV personality say something like that wasn't the smartest thing he could have said (maybe he isn't the brightest bulb), and I'm sure he regretted it the minute it came out of his mouth.
Ethics and morals are out the window folks...this is what you are teaching the next generation...it's okay, it was a joke, it wasn't the wrong thing to say; when, in fact, it was wrong.
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 833
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 4:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok, I will leave you and Crystal alone. It is a matter of liberal and conservative. Liberals could care less about petty jokes like that (as people have used ski masks to commit crimes), and there's no sense in prettying up the situation like you guys want it. I still don't understand this though. Devin gets all these complaints, yet other people have said worse things than that and get by. It's just crazy in my opinion. Conservative get highly up tight about it. It's a living hell if your prom date stood you up for conservatives.
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Bussey
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Username: Bussey

Post Number: 621
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 4:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wazootyman,

You prove my point exactly.

quote:

"People want the largest quantity of low-priced goods they can get without considering the true cost. Given the choice, they'd probably opt for the China-made product that costs 1/4 as much instead of a USA-made equivalent. Never mind that their neighbor works at the factory."




We here in America are not tied by a national heritage, i.e. all Germans or Japanese that share common ethnic or racial ties. We are bonded by our commonality to be "successful"

People move from city to city, state to state all the time for the lure of better economic opportunities.

Look at DetroitYes for example.

Hundreds of us, including myself, love Detroit yet choose not to live there for economic reasons. I love America yet choose to by products made in other countries due to economic reasons, i.e. my money dictates what I buy not my alliance to my country.

We are a nation of consumers not countrymen. Our way of life is predicated on finding happiness through products, money and being 'successful'. In our world, heritage means little.

This is relative to BuyAmerican's response about Devin's remarks as well.


quote:

"He certainly wasn't thinking, and with the City of Detroit just receiving the "most dangerous City in the U.S." distinction, it wasn't an appropriate remark at all, joking or not."



You are indicative of the ignorance that has permeated throughout this city for the last 50 years.

He makes a non-directed statement regarding a ski-mask, not a city, and you interpret it against Detroit. Why?

Why are you always on the defensive?

Do you constantly have to bolster the city, American cars, and others because you are cognizant of their inferiority?

When you constantly claim that you MUST buy American cars to save jobs it is a plea for pity not quality. Your claim should be to buy American because it is the best not the most in need.

I'm glad you don't work for the Big Three's ad firms because they would really be in trouble then.
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Hpgrmln
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Username: Hpgrmln

Post Number: 288
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 7:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Americans have always had the right to purchase American cars"

Profound.
When it comes to having a right, we have the right to make choices and have options. This would be a boring country if all we drove were American gas-hungry pickups, SUVs, or vans. What makes America so great is that we HAVE many options. We are a civilized nation that accepts products from elsewhere much like we have allowed people from elsewhere. If we let Asians and Germans come to our country and become citizens, we should let there industry have a presence too.Our people are diverse. Everything else ought to be too. This is America, land of the FREE, remember?
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Newport1128
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Username: Newport1128

Post Number: 145
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 9:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My opinion is that Buyamerican just likes to rattle people's cages. Must give him some kind of ego boost, knowing he can arouse so much animosity. Hell, for all we know he drives an Isuzu Trooper...or worse yet, a rusted-out 1986 K-Car. If you don't like what he says, ignore it.

As far as the Devin thing goes, lighten up, people. He didn't make a direct connection between the ski mask and crime in Detroit. Robbers wearing ski masks is pretty much universal. He is not a spokesperson for Detroit, just a guy who reads the news on TV. If someone you work with made the same comment, would you jump all over them? People who can look at the lighter side of things tend to live longer; think about George Burns, Groucho Marx and Bob Hope. There's a name for folks who see every offhand comment as an attack: paranoid.
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Karl_jr
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Username: Karl_jr

Post Number: 173
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 11:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

devin is not my favorite, but big whoop that remark should be detroits only f'n worry. get over it.
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Thecarl
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Username: Thecarl

Post Number: 1188
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 11:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Ask someone who has been at the other end of a gun or knife at a convenience store.



honestly, i did exactly that today. most folks chuckled at the joke. even more chuckled that folks made an issue of it.

i understand what you're saying here, buyamerican. when brought to an individual level, an experience like this is not funny - such as "hey, dude, remember when you pi55ed yourself when you got robbed?" but on a highly generalized level - such as with "the joke" at issue here - you'd be surprised how some people use that sense of humor to survive.

some of the most morbid and twisted jokes i ever heard were from cops. the laughter was a bridge between the reality they expected, and the surreality they might encounter.

so, hey - the line would have gotten laughs at most any parade broadcast across the country, just because of the caricature of a man in a ski mask. and, we all know the "most dangerous city" moniker is junk science, right?

finally, a joke i once heard: the hardest job in the world is working at a bank in alaska. fifty customers, and they're all wearing ski masks!
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Cub
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Username: Cub

Post Number: 91
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2007 - 11:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^I laughed a that just like I laughed a Devin's joke lol.
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Buyamerican
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Username: Buyamerican

Post Number: 225
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 12:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have never said people MUST purchase American. I have been a very strong advocate for purchasing American made automobiles because I have a loyalty to America and want to see it remain strong, without China or Japan helping us and eventually taking over. Some of you, on the other hand, don't care and I feel sorry for you. I have tried not to make this a personal matter, unlike some of you here. When you're pushed up against a wall with no answers that really mean anything, you attack and get defensive.
Like I said in a previous post...
Now I know why the U.S. is in the shape it's in.

WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA!
OUT OF A JOB YET...KEEP BUYING FOREIGN!
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Thecarl
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Username: Thecarl

Post Number: 1189
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 12:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

buyamerican, i have a better idea.

move to colorado, farm the land, raise some livestock, learn to hunt, live as one with the land. that is your only absolution from the corporate greed of america, whose arrogance, missteps, and complacency plagues you.
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Bussey
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Username: Bussey

Post Number: 622
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 1:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BuyAmerican, have you ever heard of Alfred Sloan?

I'll leave you with one of his more famous quotes;

"The business of business is business."






Do the world a favor. Read a book about Alfred Sloan and then take that damn bumper sticker off your car that I know you have.

OUT OF A JOB YET...BUY ANOTHER BUMPER STICKER!
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Dannyv
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Username: Dannyv

Post Number: 49
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 1:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Channel 4 is my least favorite of the local news providers. I find them to be nothing but cheerleaders for the status quo. For Devin to make a crack like that gives me hope that there is a human pulse at that station. Especially in light of the fact that the station was shot up a few years ago.
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Jimg
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Username: Jimg

Post Number: 973
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 10:12 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I concluded that Buyamerican is actually Karl, with a different set of online clothing: same urgency, says "I'm not SAYING anyone has to buy American", implication is 'if you don't you are an idiot, country is going down the tubes and it is YOUR FAULT for not buying a NEW US made car at regular intervals...oops, I mean a car made in the US by a union factory from mostly US supplied parts and sold by an honest God-fearing American company that will keep the profits here. Otherwise, the Far East will take over your land and corrupt your soul'

OK, I admit the last bit is maybe over the top...
Same shrill Karl-like delivery.
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 1413
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 10:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jimg,
You haven't apparently been totally paying attention when Karl ranted.

He would be very happy for you to buy a non-union made vehicle.

It's others, like me, who would urge you if you consider yourself progressive, to look for the union label when you buy a car. That is your assurance that the employees are getting due process when something goes wrong, good benefits, etc.

Or do you care about those things when you buy a car?
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Buyamerican
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Username: Buyamerican

Post Number: 227
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 11:18 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.howtobuyamerican.co m/bamw/bamw-061129-auto.shtml
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Bussey
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Username: Bussey

Post Number: 623
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 11:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

NAFTA Lapel Button Show your opposition to the North American Free Trade Agreement with this lapel button


Since when is something that is "Free" a bad thing
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Sstashmoo
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Username: Sstashmoo

Post Number: 605
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 12:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bussey,

So you're advocating that consumers should just look for the cheapest price and disregard supporting American manufacturing (their own jobs)? You seem pretty sharp, help me with the math on this. Consumers here earn a paycheck generated largely from goods and services that are US based, they should take those funds and invest in foreign companies by purchasing their goods and services? Now, do these foreign countries/companies re-invest those funds here or do they "play for keeps" as I learned playing marbles? I also had a piggy-bank when I was a kid, I learned early on, if I took more out than I put in, it was eventually empty. Was I not doing it right? Should I have read Alfred Sloan? I mean "The business of business is business" is just pure genius. He must've been up all night to come up with that.

I think one of the biggest problems in this country is, the young people don't realize what they have and how easy it is to lose. Even those that claim they are not doing well are still comparatively better off "globally" speaking. Oops!, theres that word.
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Bussey
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Username: Bussey

Post Number: 624
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 5:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sstashmoo,

Alfred Sloan was the biggest reason GM is what it is today.

So if you are really so Pro-American you'd A: Know this and B: realize that our economy is dependent upon the "invisible hand", something you don't believe in since the market, in your mind, is based on allegiance and not an informed and opinionated consumer.

The point of Sloan's quote is that the woes of the labor pool should not be the concern of anyone but labor itself.

Their is a debate going on about this and for a long time Japanese business philosophy dictated otherwise and most contemporaries actually believed that Sloan had it wrong, AHH a US business doing something wrong, but yes they believed that employees should not be treated as commodities but partners.

You never had instances in Japan or even the US regarding Japanese companies like you did in Flint, MI.

I could go on and on discussing this but in the end you are never going to absorb any of this so I'll just keep you in mind when I see those catchy bumper stickers from behind the wheel of my VW!

ROTFLMBAO

Black-atcha

Tear that schitt down!
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Hpgrmln
Member
Username: Hpgrmln

Post Number: 289
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 6:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok,I've tried to restrain myself, but I can't anymore. These tired arguments just keep popping out from stubborn union advocates.
I am in a union. We have a no-strike clause. we strike, we lose our job. we understand this upon employment. We are allowed Less than one hour of break time during shift. We are okay with this. The UAW isn't. Some of us are apprehensive about buying a car from workers whose #1 priority is trying to screw over an empoyee who is paying them well by striking and holding up productivity. I'm concerned to buy something made by workers who are more concerned about taking their next smoke/coffee break on the clock than building cars. Idon't want want my car built by a lineworker who sleeps on the job.
I make far less money than the lineworkers and am getting by okay. I'm not going to try to halt productivity to try and hurt management until they give me $20+/hour. We get our lazy butt sent home if we get caught sleeping on the job, which we deserve.
In a non-union auto plant, workers are not only thankful for what they have, they don't try to bite the hand that feeds them or feel they are so entitled to everything they want that it's okat to make everyone else suffer until they get it. They are more disciplined and have a stronger work ethic.
THIS is why the industry is suffering. Poor ethics. We want our cars built by people who understand that they need to be productive and cut the almighty self-centered crap of "I'll work if I feel like it."
Go ahead. Throw rocks at me. Verbally beat me up. You want to save the industry? Take it from this consumer and union member. Wake the #$*& up.
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Jimg
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Username: Jimg

Post Number: 974
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 8:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pffft, I avoid buying new cars. In five years or so I'll buy another used car. And I'll consult Con Rrpt for reliability information. Hasn't failed me, yet. I don't have a preference for union-assembled vehicles nor do I use that as a litmus test for vehicle purchase.
I think that the new union contracts are bringing the car companies, and their unions, back to earth. And if the quality level continues to improve over time that is cause for rejoicing.
The entire outsourcing issue was tabled by the car companies. Suppliers were encouraged to outsource. Why? Because the consumer (us) wanted to pay less money for new cars. Perhaps the union didn't care - they got discounts, anyway.
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 1414
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 8:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Suppliers were encouraged to outsource."

Really? Not the American suppliers I knew, that went out of business while the Japanese auto companies have preferences in place for Japanese suppliers.

"Why? Because the consumer (us) wanted to pay less money for new cars. Perhaps the union didn't care - they got discounts, anyway."

What union are you talking about, Jim, that didn't care? It must be a different UAW than the one I know, that has actively campaigned against NAFTA and all the other corporate giveaways that put Michigan in the position it is now.
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Sstashmoo
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Username: Sstashmoo

Post Number: 606
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 10:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bussey,

You're right I don't absorb nonsense. Incidently, "Flint, Michigan" is in the US.

The point I was making that some whom are obviously educated beyond their intelligence feel anything they don't understand is much too large and complex for anyone to comprehend. It's not that large. And how anyone can consider the loss of US-based goods, services and jobs and not understand the effect on our quality of life is beyond reason.

And the next auction paper I get (about 3 per week now) where some poor bastard is losing his business to foreign competition, shrinking dollar and little domestic support, I'll think of the folks that feel that being opinionated and indifferent is more important.

Good luck to you.
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Buyamerican
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Username: Buyamerican

Post Number: 229
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 10:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sstashmoo, my sentiments exactly. Somehow the comprehension and logic of some on this forum is very limited.
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Ravine
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Username: Ravine

Post Number: 1635
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 10:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

*Ahem*
Comprehension and logic, by their natures, are always limited.
I'm such a little stinker.
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Miesfan
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Username: Miesfan

Post Number: 68
Registered: 11-2007
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 10:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =40U063Oh83c
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2758
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Sunday, November 25, 2007 - 11:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wonder how this is any different then the folks that try and do all their buying in Detroit.

There are a lot of good points being made.Reality is that the U.S. auto makers screwed up a long time ago; about fifty years or so.In the fifties they could have focused more on R&D and less on styling.I am not blaming them they did what made them money.......but had they the foresight to see that quality would be a neccesity perhaps they would not be in the situation they now face.

I think it is unrealistic and unreasonable to ask consumers to buy something out of loyalty. And aren't we supposed to be the best? SO go out and beat the current best(Honda,Toyota). As things are now auto buyers have had better expereiences over the last decade with Japanese cars. The U.S. is making ground but things are as they are.

As for NAFTA I tried to start a discussion here many mo's ago.......I got maybe one response.

There is a former IBM vice pres that has some interesting ideas on free trade and how it effects the united states.The fact is that it may raise the standard of living in some parts of the world; but it definitely lowers ours here in the U.S. I do get rankled when politicians spout the perfunctory line of how free trade benefits all....it doesn't.

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