  Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 950 Registered: 11-2003 |
Spotted in Crain’s were the recent July 2007 Michigan Bar exam results. http://www.crainsdetroit.com/a pps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2007 1119/SUB/311190078/1033/toc/-/ -/vc-group-names-quatrx-founde r-entrepreneur-of-year The figures regarding the number and the law school alma maters of the first time takers produce a couple of troubling observations. First, the total number of first time takers was 730. One could only wish that the Michigan economy was expanding at a rate sufficient to absorb the supply of legal services these new barristers are now able to provide. (Not to mention the 100 or so people taking the test for at least the second time.) With state GDP growth stagnant and population growth barely budging, it gets more competitive out there every year for the lawyers. Also, the numbers from U of M Law School were kind of depressing because they too confirm some of the state’s problems. As some folks discussed in a recent thread, U of M is the only law school in the state whose graduates advance into job opportunities on a national scale. A U of M graduate, apparently almost regardless of class rank, can score job interviews wherever he/she desires. So, how does our state fare against the national competition for these best and brightest? Well, law school graduating classes at U of M are somewhere in the 300 student range. According to the Crain’s article, only 28 recent U of M graduates sat for the July bar exam. One-third or more of students at U of M Law are Michigan residents. Yet, only 10% or less of the graduates are apparently staying in Michigan. Looks like a brain drain. That's not really good. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4039 Registered: 02-2005 |
It's definitely brain drain, but it is NOT a new thing as UM is a national law school and a national university, and people come and go. Michigan should consider itself lucky to have a place like UM that at least attracts out of state talent to live here for awhile and have an outside chance of settling here. Some recent success by UD Mercy has shown that U-M is not the only Michigan schoolsthat places grads at national firms. Clearly it is a much small percentage from the top of their class, but you can't say that UM is the only law school that provides outside job opportunities. Those passage rankings from everyone except Cooley are outstanding. I believe every one of those schools has gone upwards a bit. I know that for one or two test dates last year UD actually led the state, surging to 85-90 percent after being in the cellar for awhile. That is very nice to see Wayne's high passage rate, but I have serious qualms about going there after seeing their classrooms and learning that no solid modernization plans are in place. Kudos to their professors and students, though. U-D's passage rate is really outstanding considering their fairly open admissions standards. There is good teaching going on there. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2786 Registered: 06-2006 |
A couple of observations... First, I agree that demand has not been keeping up with supply as of late. WSU law school agrees as well...they just cut their incoming class size from 220 to 185...that's 35 fewer lawyers competing for jobs when the 2007 class graduates in 2010...I'm not really sure what the other schools are doing in terms of their class size Second, Michigan will be losing an entire law school this year when Ave Maria completes its move to Florida...that's another 65 fewer lawyers that will be competing for jobs in the near future... Finally, as far as the University of Michigan goes, its graduates leaving the state isn't really evidence of a brain drain...few people in the state realize what a national law program U of M has for legal education...graduates of national law schools go where the big jobs are, which are NY, Chicago, D.C. and LA... the bulk of U of M law school grads leaving Michigan is no more of a brain drain than the bulk of Yale law school graduates leaving Connecticut | ||
Arab_guyumich Member Username: Arab_guyumich Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2007 |
It's always a good bet to base your opinion of a law school on the modernity of its classrooms... | ||
Arab_guyumich Member Username: Arab_guyumich Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2007 |
Thejesus, actually I believe that the final enrollment for WSU Law's incoming class is significantly smaller than the 185 figure. I've heard figures in the high 160s to low 170s...and if you look on the Faces website, it's clear that the class is smaller than the 185 figure. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2787 Registered: 06-2006 |
"It's always a good bet to base your opinion of a law school on the modernity of its classrooms..." hey, you'd be surprised how many of my classmates didn't get OCI offers this year solely because they attend a school with a classroom building straight out of the 1960s :D | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4041 Registered: 02-2005 |
Hmmm, when the person giving you the tour admits that they blow fuses because everyone is plugging their laptops into one of three wall outlets, and that they just got wireless internet last year, then you have issues. The fact that the situation may not be remedied for 3-5 years makes me wonder about the financial resources the school is working with, and its priorities, considering that they gave the administration nice new offices recently. I have the utmost respect for WSU and its law school standards, and the good results like what we saw published today. Normally I would not put such a premium on technology, thinking good books and professors are all that you need to learn, but its hard to excuse such basic problems. It's not like Wayne's building is an historic landmark that would be difficult to renovate and for which you might excuse some antiquated features...it's classrooms are in a mid-century building. If I get into a comparable school with an up to date campus, then I sure as hell will factor classrooms into my decision. ...back to the bar results... | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2788 Registered: 06-2006 |
arab_guy: I think you may be right...I've heard that too and after browsing the faces site, it looks like there's around 155, versus about 210 for the 2006 class... | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2790 Registered: 06-2006 |
Mackinaw: Just so you know, there are in fact plans to build a new classroom building on the site of the existing classroom building...I believe the school has raised about half the necessary capital to date. You can view renderings by going to the following link and scrolling down to "Law School Renderings" http://waynefirst.wayne.edu/me dia_kit.php | ||
Arab_guyumich Member Username: Arab_guyumich Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2007 |
I just looked up the Faces website, and there are 154 students by my count. I know that based on previous classes, a handful of students likely don't have photos on there...but that's still 30 short of the 185 numbers, so it correlates with what I've heard about the actual class size. This could be a good thing for WSU, if it means that the school is going to be more selective in the future. Both in terms of improving rankings and producing fewer lawyers for a shrinking economy. However, I fear that the reduced class size is more likely a result of students opting out of coming to Wayne for financial reasons, or to attend other law schools in the state. | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 268 Registered: 07-2005 |
I think its a stretch to link quality of teaching with bar exam success. Success on the bar exam speaks to quality of the students, not quality of the teaching. I think the number of Cooley students is a significant problem. That school is growing like crazy and I don't know where all of these grads think that they're going to work after they graduate. According to their website there are currently over 3,200 students enrolled at Cooley today. This is likely to cause big problems in our State's legal market in the coming years. Cooley has to be one of the biggest law schools in the country (along with Harvard and Georgetown). This is disturbing because they are, for the most part, taking students who could not get in anywhere else (average LSAT of 147). This trend, coupled with an ever increasing bar passage rate (the bar passage rate today is significantly higher than it was 10-20 years ago), leads me to believe that it is easier to become a lawyer today than ever before. Not a good thing for the profession. | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 425 Registered: 11-2003 |
http://online.wsj.com/article/ SB117988156447211549-search.ht ml | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 951 Registered: 11-2003 |
quote:Yes, U of M is a national law school, but given that it is a public institution, a state school in other words, its student body has different demographics than most of the other well-known national schools. The Ivies, Stanford, NYU and other similar private national law schools do not concentrate one third or more of their admissions from one state. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4042 Registered: 02-2005 |
TJ, thanks for the link. I hope the plans become more concrete in a hurry. Spartacus, I think teaching has to play a big role. UM will be at an obvious advantage because it has students who, on average, are either smarter or harder working. They also have a top notch faculty, though. Once your in law school, any law school, it's all about learning the law. While there may be some barriers to overcome, Cooley and UD students can be taught the same laws just as well as UM students. How can I prove that teaching has an effect? UD and Cooley have similar admissions standards and rankings. UD has a bar passage rate head and shoulders above Cooley. Rjlj, thanks for posting that. That's the sort of stuff that is constantly talked about by the people in UD admissions now. It seems like high performers at that school are being empowered. | ||
Higgs1634 Member Username: Higgs1634 Post Number: 222 Registered: 10-2005 |
quote: Wow. It's amazing the knuckle dragging, mouth breathers that did not go to AA are able to get through the day. Nothing like living up to reputation of a typical UM student. "While there may be some barriers to overcome, Cooley and UD students can be taught the same laws just as well as UM students." You can't possibly be serious when you make a statement like that can you? Are you saying they are retarded? | ||
Yvette248 Member Username: Yvette248 Post Number: 1021 Registered: 10-2006 |
Speaking of brain drain, my friend applied to the UofD and Harvard Law. He was accepted into Harvard Law with a comprehensive (read lucrative) financial aid package. UofD barely recognized him. Wondering about his qualifications??? Try 173 on the LSAT (out of a possible 180). DEFINITELY not an affirmative action admission. So perhaps some of the brain drain is the fault of employers and organizations not doing enough to appreciate the people who are already here. Another case in point, all of our admins have bachelors degrees. Yep, a B.A. is required to make copies, schedule meetings and make travel arrangements. Not exactly a welcoming corporate environment is it? | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 269 Registered: 07-2005 |
Mackinaw: I'm not sure what you've proven. I may be wrong here, but I believe that the admission standards for UD were higher than they were at Cooley three years ago. Do you have evidence to the contrary? As far as the bar passage rate being "head and shoulders higher than Cooley", first time takers at Cooley passed 74% while first time takers at UD passed 87%. I'm not sure if this constitutes "head and shoulders" or not. I am, however, sure that quality of teaching does not have much to do with how you do on a standardized test 2-3 years after you were taught the material (actually for many Cooley and UD students its probably more like 3-4 years because they tend to be part time students). Many law students don't even take classes that cover a good portion of the material on the MBE. Law school is not intended to be 3 years of preparation for the bar exam. | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 270 Registered: 07-2005 |
Yvette, what do you mean they barely recognized him? Are you saying he didn't get in? Or they didn't kiss his ring? If you're saying he didn't get in I'm calling B.S. I would respond to your last sentence, but I have no idea what your point is so regretfully I cannot. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4647 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: A BA is essentially the lowest, easiest college degree to acquire. Several dozens of millions have them without their having the higher degrees. So, your point was? | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2603 Registered: 12-2004 |
If you look at that article more closely, you will notice something far more troubling than anything mentioned thus far. My younger brother passed the bar exam and is now licensed to practice law in the state of Michigan. May God help us all! | ||
Fnemecek Member Username: Fnemecek Post Number: 2604 Registered: 12-2004 |
^ Oops! It wasn't in the one linked above after all. (I'm just seeing things.) It was in another one that I saw earlier. Still, there is one more lawyer in the Nemecek clan. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4044 Registered: 02-2005 |
Higgs, read closer. I'm refuting Spartacus' point that UM has 'better students, therefore better test results.' Read for context, pal. I have no affiliation with UM Law School and there is about a .05% chance I ever will (so I am not partisan, which bears no relevance anyway), but indeed, as Spartacus insinuates, they get some amazing students. I'm saying that this puts UM at an automatic advantage for being able to put up higher Bar passage rates (partially conceding to Spartacus' logic), but I'm sustaining that teaching does factor into these rates, too. I'm saying that, in terms of the starting product, Cooley/UD have students that aren't as stellar as UM Law (who would refute this?), and this is that "barrier" I speak of...but UD etc. has good professors just like UM law, and in the end I'm complimenting the likes of UD for coming up with great bar passage rates despite being very open and indeed the opposite of UM in terms of admissions. Do you care to refute any of that, or simply half-read my posts and assume that I went to UM undergrad and am therefore an ass? | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2791 Registered: 06-2006 |
"Yes, U of M is a national law school, but given that it is a public institution, a state school in other words, its student body has different demographics than most of the other well-known national schools. The Ivies, Stanford, NYU and other similar private national law schools do not concentrate one third or more of their admissions from one state." I think your estimate of 1/3 is high, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt... We'll say 100 of U of M's class each year is from Michigan... When you consider that graduates of that school are virtually guaranteed national market rate jobs that start at $145-160k per year, and that by contrast the most they will start at in MI is $95k-125, 28 out of 100 staying in the state would be pretty good... Again, I think your 1/3 estimate is high, but even so, its easy to see why grads of a national law school would want to practice in a national market...SE MI does not pay national market rates to first year lawyers... (Message edited by thejesus on November 19, 2007) | ||
Higgs1634 Member Username: Higgs1634 Post Number: 223 Registered: 10-2005 |
quote: Well, Mack when you say stuff like this... quote: ...very little has to be assumed. | ||
Rooms222 Member Username: Rooms222 Post Number: 73 Registered: 04-2005 |
>>>>>The Ivies, Stanford, NYU and other similar private national law schools do not concentrate one third or more of their admissions from one state. I know from personal experience, that this figure includes anyone who has any significant connection to Michigan past or present. Many of the admits are then reclassified as out of state students once admitted (i.e. if you went to High School or College in Michigan you will be classified as this 1/3rd, but, in reality, you are not legally a current Michigan Resident, and will likely be reclassified as such within a couple of weeks of admission (to pay the higher tuition). That's why the number IS a stretch...... | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4046 Registered: 02-2005 |
That was an aside, Higgs, and thanks for focusing on that now that I've cleared up the other more on-topic debate. But you don't want to debate, you just want to pretend that you know me because you read my sentences in a certain way. Now, Swingline had mentioned brain drain. I said I thought there was some brain drain because alot of people born and raised in MI do go to UM and some of the other law schools, only to leave. But I said that it was nothing new because UM is a national university and its colleges, especially its law school, attract many people who don't stay here, but were never from here in the first place. Is it problematic, in your book, for me to suggest that this is a GOOD thing?...15,000+ non-Michigan people living in Michigan, even if they do not pay taxes, is a damn good thing because they bring economic activity and much-needed outside perspective (oftentimes international). And I'm sure that some small percentage of those people end up loving Michigan and stay here, helping to counterbalance our population outflow. That makes a national institution like UM an asset to the state, no? Inasmuch as MSU and Wayne State do this to a smaller extent, they are also assets. Since we were specifically talking about UM's national stature and its alleged "brain drain," I only mentioned UM in my sentence. Let me rephrase it to the standards of manifest neutrality that you demanded: "Michigan is lucky to have any out of state students studying at any of its many fine institutions, regardless of whether they stay long-term or not." Keep trying to paint an inaccurate picture of me. Keep it up. I don't enjoy it, and we have to fuck up alot of good threads to allow me to clear up these allegedly controversial statements, but if you like when I have to do this, keep it coming. | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 952 Registered: 11-2003 |
1/3 estimate might be low. This website claims that the percentage of Michigan residents at U of M Law School is 40%: http://www.law-school-admissio n.com/michigan/ | ||
Yvette248 Member Username: Yvette248 Post Number: 1022 Registered: 10-2006 |
"What do you mean they barely recognized him? Are you saying he didn't get in? Or they didn't kiss his ring?" Ooooh, I detect a little jealousy here.... | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2799 Registered: 06-2006 |
"Ooooh, I detect a little jealousy here...." Then you completely missed what and why he was asking. | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 272 Registered: 07-2005 |
No, just wanted to know what you meant by that. It certainly isn't clear. If I applied to a school I would want to know whether I got in or not. I'm not sure I know what it would mean to be "recognized". You seemed to be implying that we are experiencing brain drain because schools like UD are allowing schools like Harvard to out work them to attract high quality students. With all due respect, if this is what you in fact meant (and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that it isn't), then I detect a little stupidity here.... | ||
Edziu Member Username: Edziu Post Number: 16 Registered: 07-2007 |
Let us not forget Monsignor Monaghan at Ave Maria in Florida. How many gifted students do you think left the state and followed the pied piper to Naples? "Gloria in excelsis Deo" | ||
Spaceman_spiff Member Username: Spaceman_spiff Post Number: 97 Registered: 02-2006 |
Edziu, Ave Maria is still functioning here in Michigan, and drawing some of the best and brightest to our state. However, in only two years, all those attending will be relocated to Florida, and that will be a loss for the state. Not to threadjack, but how many forumers here are planning on taking (or have recently taken)the Michigan Bar Exam? Further, what resources do your schools offer to students preparing for the exam? Do they work? -spiff |
