  Detalum Member Username: Detalum Post Number: 5 Registered: 09-2007 |
When a topic relates to downtown retail development, I’ve often noticed an anti-Mall sentiment from many posters. I never gave it much thought until I saw a recent Poster say, in effect, “Retail-Yes … Mall-No”. That was an interesting, yet contradictory statement. It begs the question, just what is being consider a Mall? (I am referring specifically to shopping malls, rather than other types such as for walking. The Riverwalk can be considered a Mall.) - Is a Mall an enclosed assortment of various retail outlets? What about open-air Malls? - Is a Mall based on size(Strip vs Mega Malls)? - Is a Mall viewed by geographical constraints (Underground Malls or street boundaries)? - Does the type of included businesses define a Mall? - Is a Mall viewed by the construction design when it differs from the adjacent architecture? - Etc. Can’t many consumer businesses in relatively close proximity to one another be considered a Mall? If so, then once upon a time, Detroit had the best open-air Mega Mall around called Downtown Detroit, with Woodward as its main passageway. Thinking in large scale, aren't all major city shopping areas, Malls? I am interested to hear from those Posters opposing a downtown “Mall”, and how they are viewing such a development. I think the term Mall is really of little importance, and that downtown development should be viewed as Retail-Yes … Retail-Yes. Maybe a little over-simplified. [Please, no boring dictionary quotes! I’m interested in people perceptions and attitudes] | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 758 Registered: 09-2007 |
That's an interesting way of thinking about it. Yes, you're right about the definition of a "Mall." A Mall doesn't have to be one building, but it could be a set of buildings, like Merchants Row or The Magnificant Mile in Chicago. However, many think of a mall as a huge parcel of land with surface lots and a variety of stores that suck the life of a retail along the street. I say "yes" for a Mall in Downtown Detroit. I just say "No" for a huge parcel of land with surface parking and lifeless. | ||
Mr_onion Member Username: Mr_onion Post Number: 203 Registered: 11-2003 |
this is the wave of the future for malls,, open air. www.wintergardenvillage.com | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1167 Registered: 04-2005 |
i'll start this one. a mall is a predominantly contiguous structure designed primarily to host a variety of retail stores, established on a single parcel of property, with accompanying space for parking. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4028 Registered: 02-2005 |
Are arcades malls? I.e. the Nickels Arcade in Ann Arbor. I think the distinction between a typical modern indoor mall and other random retail layouts that you might lump under "mall" is clear. Modern malls take all the good things about urban street retail and put them in a controlled environment with total control by a manager/landlord, in a setting 100 percent accessible by car. And outdoor mall might have the spatial elements of a 16th century Italian city...narrow corridors with tightly-packed storefronts on either side. But the fact is that that arrangement in a mall setting is not natural and not built into a city scape, but rather a faux, planned landscape more than likely surrounded by parking and collector roads. Malls can, of course, be found in urban areas and even downtowns, but normally to the detriment of the surrounding area. There's Wintergarden in the RenCen. It's one of the most pleasing malls I've ever seen, but it doesn't help the rest of the downtown. A "mall" that is completely surrounded by other downtown retail, and which is open and airy, with multiple access points off the surrounding streets/sidewalks, could be good, but by the time you make something like that you have something that is hardly akin to the conventional idea of a modern mall. We'd call that a "retail collection" or some other fancy type of "arcade." | ||
Craig Member Username: Craig Post Number: 471 Registered: 02-2007 |
Private property •••• That's what a mall is. Open-air, closed, life-style center, or whatever, the central feature is that it is someone's property and therefore it is used to make money for the owner. As such, they usually trounce retail along "public" thoroughfares because the owners provide what shoppers want. Sure, a resurrected Washington Blvd. would be great for the nostalgia buffs, but the model isn't viable. I have my doubts that a mall could make it in this town either, but some greedy ol' capitalists keeping a close watch and hanging on every word of the customer is more likely to deliver what people want than will hit/miss infill supported by the anything-but-customer-friendly City bureaucracy/civil service. | ||
Rob_in_warren Member Username: Rob_in_warren Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2007 |
3rd Street Promenade in Santa Monica, CA is a mall yet it is set on a street closed to traffic. There are parking structures at either end, but you must walk the "street" to shop. Kind of a neat place to shop, eat, drink, watch break-dancers... I don't like the idea of putting a Somerset or Lakeside downtown. If I have to go into an indoor mall, I might as well go to a more convenient suburban mall. I would love to see Detroit have it's own "Magnificent Mile", or at least a magnificent block or two. | ||
Gnome Member Username: Gnome Post Number: 394 Registered: 08-2007 |
I'm down south visiting relatives and just took a detour through a converted canning factory in the town of Franklin, TN. This place reminded me so much of the old factories on Iron Street down on the riverfront or those factories off of Victor in Highland Park. Take a look at their site, it was an amazing reuse of existing space. So the question is could downtown Detroit handle a department store, or a shopping mall ... not right now, but with more adaptive reuse, folks might have their minds changed. http://www.factoryatfranklin.c om/ | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 838 Registered: 07-2006 |
I generally agree with Craig. It's a single large development, usually indoor (but not necessarily), with little to no integration with its surroundings, and generally encircled by parking lots that further separate it from the surrounding area. Other 'malls' exist that differ from this definition, such as the Kalamazoo Mall and several later versions of that concept, but 'mall' as i refer to it here is the usual suburban variety. I want more retail downtown, but not of this variety. Malls these days are mostly outdoor, and poor imitations of traditional downtowns. Since we already have one of them, why not fill it up with retail? There are enough empty lots and empty retail spaces already that we don't need one large development to suck up what demand for retail there already is. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1485 Registered: 02-2006 |
Open air malls are the wave of the future? If the future is 1950, sure. | ||
Mr_onion Member Username: Mr_onion Post Number: 204 Registered: 11-2003 |
ah their is NOT one Closed in Mall being developed anywhere in the country right now, Open air or lifestyle is what Mall developers are building currently. The old INDOOR mall is Dead. | ||
Reddog289 Member Username: Reddog289 Post Number: 86 Registered: 08-2007 |
when i was a kid northland was still an open mall like wonderland was, but living closer to westland mall it was like the open malls yet closed. but i also went to 7/evergreen & the 7/Grand, they all had kressge,s. when i think about it i liked 7/evergreen the most, park behind the store you want go in get out. | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 502 Registered: 10-2005 |
A mall was originally a promenade like the mall in DC. I think it was also used to describe a place for pedestrians with little traffic interference. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3735 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: I'm curious to know what you mean by this, Craig. Can you expound a bit? | ||
Craig Member Username: Craig Post Number: 473 Registered: 02-2007 |
Washington Blvd (RIP) = Chicago's Magnificent Mile: street-facing, single entrance, high-end retail. It worked here for a long time, but then died for a reason. | ||
Rob_in_warren Member Username: Rob_in_warren Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2007 |
Developers in the area are building these open-air malls in lieu of the real thing. People like them because it feels like they are shopping in a downtown setting. These new lifestyle malls should be encouraging for those who want to bring back downtown retail. If done correctly, I think their would be tremendous support from the entire region. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3736 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: I'd argue that it's not the model that's flawed, as you claim, but that Detroit hemmorraged jobs and residents over several decades. Agree/disagree? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2223 Registered: 04-2006 |
^He's gonna say it died because of crime. | ||
Quinn Member Username: Quinn Post Number: 1543 Registered: 01-2005 |
Mr.Onion that makes me sick. I'd rather have an enclosed mall, ala Water Tower Place in Chicago, in downtown Detroit than that hideous, disney dream. | ||
Craig Member Username: Craig Post Number: 475 Registered: 02-2007 |
Dan - agree, but what I posted is my shorthand for your interpretation. The model can & does work (to my eyes, at least) elsewhere, but we're in Detroit. Per my earlier post, I cannot believe that retail other than the equivalent of a gated community will work in CBD - we've fallen too far for the classic application to be viable. | ||
Craig Member Username: Craig Post Number: 476 Registered: 02-2007 |
"^He's gonna say it died because of crime." Crime may have been a factor in the initial abandonment, but it's definitely a factor in why the high-end and national players stay away. Anyone else remember the great ambulance-chaser Fieger announcing that he was on the case and planning to stick it good to Rite-Aid for killing a shoplifter? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3738 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Or maybe it's the lack of a high-enough aggregate income within a particular radius? Some of you act like Detroit is the only place on earth with crime. Get over it. | ||
Fastcarsfreedom Member Username: Fastcarsfreedom Post Number: 192 Registered: 11-2005 |
When the indoor shopping mall was king, outdoor malls were declared DEAD...now outdoor is vogue again and indoor has been declared DEAD...anyone notice this is a cycle driven by the need of the retail and development industries for innovation and sales growth? If the indoor concept was dead--then newly built "lifestyle" centers would be sucking the life out of indoor centers. Fountain Walk really slammed Twelve Oaks, didn't it? The truth is (look around Metro D)--a lot of indoor centers are thriving--you have to bear in mind that there was overbuilding--and at this point in the game, no indoor mall developer is going to throw up a new project just to suck the life out of a perfectly profitable mall down the street that's 20 or 30 years old and paid for 10X over. Partridge Creek is a nice development from what I can see--but I'd be surprised to see it really do much damage to Lakeside--they are oriented to a different demographic. It may be that there will be a return to some indoor center development, or we may see a mix of both. Developers continue to expand and enhance their indoor complexes to keep them viable (Twelve Oaks), while developing other projects like Partridge Creek and Fallen Timbers. Frankly speaking--where would you rather be in the middle of January when an Alberta Clipper blows through--Somerset or Partridge Creek? | ||
Downtown_dave Member Username: Downtown_dave Post Number: 216 Registered: 07-2005 |
It's all cyclical. Keep in mind that when Northland, Wonderland and other lands were first built, they were all open air - clusters of stores with landscaping, sculpture, water features, etc. Next, enclosed was the way to go, a la Taubman centers, anchored by the large department stores. Now in vogue are the "lifestyle centers" - and, voila! We're back to open air clusters of stores. People get bored. Developers and retailers get antsy, so change happens - and something "new" thrives for a moment in history. So, what's next? | ||
Craig Member Username: Craig Post Number: 477 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote - "Or maybe it's the lack of a high-enough aggregate income within a particular radius?" I cannot believe that you're the very last one to hear of white-flight and the depopulation of the City's middle class. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4036 Registered: 02-2005 |
You will be proven wrong, soon. Some merchants that are downtown would already say that the classic model is alive and well. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10818 Registered: 10-2003 |
A place were goo dlittle consumers go looking to buy happiness. A place that fills people with a desire to want more and live less. As you can guess I don't like malls. | ||
Craig Member Username: Craig Post Number: 478 Registered: 02-2007 |
Mack - I hope that you are right. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 3714 Registered: 10-2003 |
I can't remember the last time I set foot in a mall. I definitely do not care for them. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4038 Registered: 02-2005 |
I'm with Jt1 and Johnlodge, I don't care for modern malls. I've been dragged to Somerset twice, have never been to any other suburban malls, and have utilized Eastland basically only for its home improvement stores. But a simplistic, arcade style collection of retail that fits the older, simplistic definition of mall, and which is therefore not overwhelming, enclosed, and controlled, is a nice thing. Such an arcade, like Nickels in Ann Arbor, is kind of a logical extension of the streetscape, but without car traffic. It may or may not be open air/naturally lit, but natural light is better. Jt1, I certainly don't disagree, but your complaints seem to get at consumerism (which can occur in malls and on main streets alike-- but much more in malls these days) more than anything else. If consumerism is present in both settings, at least traditional urban retail settings let you get fresh air and enjoy a variety of architecture etc. You don't have that sterile, standardized feeling...every store is unique. And clearly those settings work better in allowing people to arrive by some means other than a car. | ||
401don Member Username: 401don Post Number: 65 Registered: 11-2007 |
The modern shopping mall was invented by Imelda Marcos in 1958. The sole purpose is to make sure all women have at least 100 pairs of shoes. Men do not like malls and have two pairs of shoes. | ||
Treelock Member Username: Treelock Post Number: 238 Registered: 03-2005 |
Drive along Woodward between the Davison and the old Model T plant and you'll see how developers are intent on converting Highland Park into a land of sprawling strip malls set back from the roadway by oceanic parking lots. It's beginning to look like Roseville or Madison Heights. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 3723 Registered: 10-2003 |
Why can't parking be BEHIND stores? I really don't understand. Stores can have entrances in front and back, like in Ferndale or Royal Oak. Put the storefronts on the sidewalk, put the ugly ass sea of parking behind. WHY NOT?! | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 685 Registered: 07-2007 |
Definitions of mall on the Web: * promenade: a public area set aside as a pedestrian walk * plaza: mercantile establishment consisting of a carefully landscaped complex of shops representing leading merchandisers; usually includes restaurants and a convenient parking area; a modern version of the traditional marketplace; "a good plaza should have a movie house"; or Commonly used to refer to the entire shopping complex but properly a r or A group of businesses, usually retail, that have individual managements, but are also managed under one administrator. Online malls are virtual malls, and may consist of one business under individual management. ecPlace is an example of an online mall.eference to the pedestrian area of the mall that connects shopping areas. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4045 Registered: 02-2005 |
Amen, JL. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2424 Registered: 07-2004 |
I have only seen this done once in Metro Detroit and I have always thought of it as a great alternative to enclosed malls. What I am talking about is the shopping complex at St. John Hospital at the corner of Moross and Mack. The retail shops are below a parking garage for the hospital, and have an enclosed, glass walk way in front of them that is heated in the winter and cooled in the summer. Stores have there names outside above the glass enclosure as well as inside on their store fronts. I like going to this shopping complex because you can get in and out quickly via doorways along the glass enclosure. Also, it's nice to have all of that natural light, which makes you feel like your not in an enclosed mall. The outdoor parking is typical strip mall parking, but it's not overbearing. The glass enclosure is what makes this shopping complex so nice to visit. If you haven' been to it, then you have to experience it for yourself. I have often wondered if something like this could work downtown. Could something like this work along lower Woodward and help retail thrive along that stretch, especially during the winter months? I'm not sure. All I know is that it hasn't been tried. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 4047 Registered: 02-2005 |
I think it could pass in several places in the City, but not lower Woodward. Of course, I'm assuming that you'd like the parking garage to contain all the neccesary parking, with no parking lagoons in front of the building. What you'd effectively have is a row of retail on the first floor of a parking deck with a little extra setback and glass enclosure. Imagine the shops in the Compuware garage facing Monroe street, with an extra, glass-enclosed mall-like walkway in front of them. It's not a bad idea, but seems a little awkward. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2425 Registered: 07-2004 |
Actually, Mackinaw, Asian Village(AV) comes close to the set-up I was talking about. Eventhough there is a sidewalk outside, you can still walk from the west end of AV to the east end of AV while inside. Imagine, instead of an open court area like there is now, that the restaurants had a front wall to them and you walked along a walkway outside of them. It's not necessary to do that, but it's an option if the restaurants close and say a clothing store wants to move in. They wouldn't want their merchandise out in the open, so they would just wall off their area. |
