Discuss Detroit » Archives - July 2007 » Can Detroit support high end dining? « Previous Next »
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Higgs1634
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Post Number: 221
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 8:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20071115/BIZ/7 11150402

I thought this guy was a whiz kid when it came to the restaurant biz. Was it all just smoke and mirrors? Did he just bite off more that he could chew?
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393bird
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 9:09 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

High End Dining, is that like McDonalds with table cloths? :-)
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Craig
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Post Number: 442
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 9:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hgh-end dinning traffic is difficult to attract to the CBD, but you wouldn't think so after reading some of the comments in the "does Detroit shut down on Sundays?" thread. Sounds as though mismanagement is compounding the problems of the current market.
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Bobj
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 9:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What a mess
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Digitalvision
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 9:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't get why people want to own individual restaurants from a business perspective.

They have a very high failure rate and it seems like there is always drama. Probably one of the reasons we've seen the rise of chains is that it's a lot easier to make money as an entrepreneur as a chain owner than as an independent.

Agreed - this isn't about downtown, this is about structural issues.
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Craig
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 9:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe that a big part of the problem is "downtown." Evidently downtown neither is home to sufficient numbers of affluent residents OR enough of a draw for affluents in and from outside of the City. 'Build it and they will come' is bunk in the restaurant biz - build it where it's convenient to "their homes" and a restaurant has a fighting chance.

The lack of chains in CBD points to the softness of the market: corporate guys do their homework in a way that mom & pop or a few athletes might not.
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Rb336
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 10:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

this sounds more like a problem with an individual cheating partners than with the businesses themselves
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Iheartthed
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 10:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

The lack of chains in CBD points to the softness of the market: corporate guys do their homework in a way that mom & pop or a few athletes might not.



You mean like Johnny Rockets, Hard Rock, Ben & Jerry's, Jimmy Johns, Starbucks, or Cold Stone Creamery?

Oh I forgot, Detroit doesn't have an Applebee's or a Cheesecake Factory so nobody would ever want to go there.
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Marcnbyr
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 10:28 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How about we read the article, not just spout off from the headline/thread title?

"But the allegations against Taylor go beyond economics."

"Sweet Georgia Brown is thriving despite the legal battle, he added."


This is about poor management, not the local fine dining market. Critical thinking skills people....
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Craig
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Post Number: 446
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 11:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Iheart... None of the places that you name are high-end, or at least not by the standards of most. BTW - Ben & Jerry's is a charitable presence.

Marn - read the article again and note one of the personalities blaming casinos & the Lodge closure for the problems. I wish that you were right in that management was the only problem, but if you were what little we have downtown wouldn't close at 5 or be so empty that some dinners are almost eerie.
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Jt1
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 11:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Andiamo riverfront, per Andiamo is the best performing one of all their restaurants.
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Iheartthed
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 11:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Iheart... None of the places that you name are high-end, or at least not by the standards of most. BTW - Ben & Jerry's is a charitable presence.

Actually, you said chains, not high-end. I do understand that high-end was the discussion, and on that point I'm hard pressed to name off any chain restaurant that I would consider high end. Certainly, most chains that come to my mind are below the scale of most restaurants in the CBD and immediate vicinity. The closest I can come up with is J. Alexander, which again, isn't really that "high-end".

Or maybe I'm just snobby...
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Redvetred
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 11:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's easy to make money when you "borrow" all of the start-up money from the taxpayers and then don't pay it back and don't pay your business taxes either. "Some" businessman just took advantage of the taxpayers who frequent his places again.
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Craig
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Post Number: 448
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 11:36 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Re: Andiamo's... maybe. I've had a couple of meals there after 5 where the only other people in the place were the staff... never had that kind of experience outside of Detroit.

Re: high-end chains - my canary in the coal mine is Ruth's Chris or Mortons... cloth-napkin places that are accountable to shareholders. I do like me some Jimmy Johns, though.
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Mackinaw
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit already has and can support high end dining.

Detroit should make no special effort to attract chains, but if an "upscale" chain did open up in the city, it would be a good sign.
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Mthouston
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 11:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Has anyone ever been to Cuisine? In New Center.
http://www.cuisinedetroit.com/
Nice place. Great food (IMHO),
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Iheartthed
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 11:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Re: high-end chains - my canary in the coal mine is Ruth's Chris or Mortons... cloth-napkin places that are accountable to shareholders.



And for those two chains that aren't in the CBD, there are at least 10 restaurants in the CBD of similar quality.

Jimmy John's is only an option when there are no other options. I prefer Quizno's.
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Johnlodge
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Opus One seems successful, they are definitely high-end.
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Detroitrise
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 12:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well we have Wolf Gang Puck, so I guess we're at the tipping point.
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Iheartthed
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 12:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^I wasn't even thinking of the casino restaurants either. There are plenty of high-end restaurants downtown and it seems to me that the market hasn't had much trouble supporting them all.
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Spiritofdetroit
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Craig: It's a fact. For the first time, Andiamos in the RenCen lead the chain last year. Your observations are wrong. This came out about a month ago. Use the search function if you want to find it
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Urbanpioneer
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I went to Cuisine on Tuesday for my girlfriend's birthday. Had the "progressive menu" with wine pairings. Expensive, but extraordinary service and food. Granted it was a Tuesday but we thought business was very slow _ we got there at 7 p.m. and there were 14 other diners. A couple came in at 8:15 p.m., but was turned away because the last seating was at 8 p.m.
This goes in with the fine-dining, high-end argument and demand in Detroit. If there was the demand, they would have stayed open. Giovanni's is expensive but they are busy and established. Maybe it's just hard for the new kid on the block?
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Craig
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 12:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Iheart/all - I acknowledge that there are fine dinning options in CBD and nearby. However, the fact that big national players are not pounding down our doors to set up shop says a lot about this market. The big dogs put a pin in a map and then draw a circle around the pin - if there are enough affluent households within the radius OR if there is evidence of sufficient affluent transient traffic a "store" will open. Detroit can be proud of what it has, but recognize that in the eyes of real players Detroit is akin to shabby-chic: good enough for local players, but not attractive enough to pull in the real professionals.

For what it's worth I only patronize the chains when I am obligated (Caucus Club & Alley Grille are for me), but I am also realistic about this environment.
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Iheartthed
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 12:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Iheart/all - I acknowledge that there are fine dinning options in CBD and nearby. However, the fact that big national players are not pounding down our doors to set up shop says a lot about this market. The big dogs put a pin in a map and then draw a circle around the pin - if there are enough affluent households within the radius OR if there is evidence of sufficient affluent transient traffic a "store" will open.



^Not really. There is no Cheesecake Factory in Manhattan (or NYC period), but who would be silly enough to say that Manhattan isn't the mecca of restaurant markets?
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Craig
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 12:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Iheart - the technique that I described is the Reader's Digest version. Other factors are, specifically, what kinds of affluents or market segments are within the radius, presence of competitors, local demographic trends/forecasts, etc. Further, locales can be excluded because they are too far off of a company's logistical trunk lines. There is a real science to site-selection. My guess is that the NYC market is served by CCF competitors, and Detroit is largely bereft because the money/patrons are in the hinterland of Oakland & Macomb counties.

Spirit - re: Andiamo... I said "maybe." I hate to think about what goes on in the other locations, though, because other than lunch RC Andiamo has always looks dead to me.
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Spiritofdetroit
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 12:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Right, but its not maybe. Thats the point. They may appear slow to you, but the RC Andiamo is the best performing
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Oldredfordette
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 12:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why are we talking about chains in a thread about fine dining?
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Iheartthed
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 12:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

But the takeaway point is that Detroit already has a fair share of upscale dining options, and the market appears to be supporting it. Even at the lowest points before "the rebound" the city maintained a few of the most unique and upscale restaurants in the region.
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Detroitrise
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 12:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oldredfordette, Chains can be upscale as well.
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Rb336
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 12:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"There is no Cheesecake Factory in Manhattan (or NYC period)"

why bother with one of those when it's so easy to go to Junior's?
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Rb336
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 12:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

oh, and while we are at it -- compare CDB to CDB. when I worked at the twin towers, there was precious little going on down there after 6, weekday or weekend. like a ghost town. been to near-empty 5-star restaurants in manhattan after 7 too.
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Belleislerunner
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 12:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Which restaurant do you consider the apex of fine dining in Detroit? One problem is that downtown office workers have such a limited selection that they lose their luster as "fine dining" and become just another place to take the potential new hire for lunch. And I kick myself when for a "special occasion" I sneak off to Birmingham, mainly just to try something new.

Even in business school at Wayne, since we were always dressed up from work, classmates would meet on the third floor of the Whitney, largely to avoid the smoke of Circa. So that to me always brings back "college bar" memories.

What's best in your book?
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Andylinn
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 1:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

it's not high end, but Slow's shows you that the city is STARVED for good tasting middle price range food served in a cool young persons modern restaurant... what else do we have? Cass Cafe comes to mind... that's kind of it. We have good restaurants... but we really only have two "cool" restaurants...
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Iheartthed
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 1:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

oh, and while we are at it -- compare CDB to CDB. when I worked at the twin towers, there was precious little going on down there after 6, weekday or weekend. like a ghost town. been to near-empty 5-star restaurants in manhattan after 7 too.



Actually, lower Manhattan/the Financial district looks A LOT like downtown Detroit during off peak hours (and in architecture too). There is little to no activity going on around there outside of tourists visiting the WTC site.
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401don
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 1:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would consider Opus One or Seldom Blues downtown's top two restaurants.

I always wondered why other non-greek restaurants haven't opened in Greektown. People flock to Greektown because they know there is some foot traffic and street atmosphere. Fisbone's does great business. Why not a good Italian/spaghetti joint in Greektown?

I like The Woodward also but it must be living on lunch business because it's dead at dinner. It unfortunately needs more atmosphere to find its niche between casual/fine dining. Maybe more flat screens, that seems to be the answer nowadays.
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Viziondetroit
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Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 1:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mosaic anyone?
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Viziondetroit
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Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 5:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does anyone know why Frank Taylor and Hotel St. Regis stopped working together prior to grand opening for "La Musique". That was supposed to be one of his golden opportunities.

Also, what happened to Grand City Grille in the Fisher Building? That was a Frank Taylor deal and it is no longer. It is now Motor City Soul Cafe or something like that.
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Bw7085
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Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 6:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know what happen with Frank Taylor and the Hotel ST. Regis. Me and my wife went to a birthday party dinner at La Musique the price was on the high side 120.00 for dinner and two drinks.
The food and service was excellent.

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