 
Rb336
Member
Username: Rb336
Post Number: 3607
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 1:37 pm: |    |
wow mind-field, VERY interesting choice. think outside the big-box right to the mother of all dept. stores. That would certainly be a destination store, which would really be needed for it to survive. |
401don
Member
Username: 401don
Post Number: 30
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 1:56 pm: | |
I'm glad for all the discussion this thread has generated and I agree with most people that there is not quite enough demand to justify any chain opening a decent size store right now.
That's why I was trying to see if there was a way to subsidize retail. Quicken is being given huge tax breaks with the hope that it will spur other tech companies to locate downtown. Would it not make sense to subsidize retail to some extent in order to jumpstart it? Would more retail encourage other types of companies to come downtown just as the stadiums, Campus Martius park, etc. are helping? Would it not improve our convention presentations? Would it not encourage more people to move downtown and pay property taxes? Maybe church groups could open some sort of retail co-op downtown with a few small businesses just as they have done in their neighborhoods.
On the other hand, maybe the city has been offering incentives to national retailers and still can't attract anyone. I would just like to see a real cost/benefit analysis done by someone with more expertise than me. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 4596
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 2:51 pm: | |
Compuware has been in the CBD for the better part of a decade and that's a yawner. I remember reading about all of those Compuware employees who were expected to resettle downtown but chose to (wisely) remain in their suburban digs.
The same will happen with QL if its relocation ever materializes. QL's turnover rate of employees does not bode well for permanent dwellers although some of them may rent downtown.
Even the bloom is off the casinos' roses. Another news blurb about still more casino-worker firings was announced this afternoon. Wasn't there another such separate report just a few weeks ago about casino firings? |
401don
Member
Username: 401don
Post Number: 31
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 2:59 pm: | |
The casino lay-offs are in Windsor. The combination of smoking ban, increased border hassles, higher Canadian dollar and the improvements to Detroit's casinos are all killing Windsor (30% drop in revenues from last yr.) This doesn't appear to be hurting Detroit, helping if anything. |
Spiritofdetroit
Member
Username: Spiritofdetroit
Post Number: 720
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 3:11 pm: | |
LY-
The announcement of Casino Windsor's layoffs is a sign that Detroit is beginning to dominate the market. That will keep happening with the expansion of all 3 casinos here, and downtown development will continue to lure folks into detroit instead of over to windsor |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 4597
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 3:14 pm: | |
Roger on the Windsor casino... I just heard about it again and paid better attention instead of just having the radio on as background..
So, are all four local casinos doing somewhat below expectations? Wasn't there once some Bingo business over in Windsor up to around 2000 or so? Never seem to hear any radio ads anymore for Windsor's Bingo.
I knew some Bingo addicts in WI personally, and their gambling habits worried me after they would take long bus rides to the Indian Bingo halls week after week (or more often). |
401don
Member
Username: 401don
Post Number: 33
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 3:35 pm: | |
Again, when the smoking ban went into effect, it really hurt Windsor Bingo. There was a humorous spot on CBC tv where they roped off the bingo parking lot and seniors (who could barely walk) stood in the freezing cold smoking as loudspeakers piped out the bingo numbers! At least in Detroit you can just wheel them up to the slots. Humorous, but you're right, pretty sad. It's kind of like years ago when the racetrack was packed on gov't pension cheque day. Probably still is. |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 742
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 3:43 pm: | |
Downtown Detroit has such a latent demand for retail it is not funny. Do you know how much retail dollars those 100,000 daily people that are downtown have?
It may not be anything huge at the moment, but there is room for more retail then is down there.
Even if MACY'S for example opened a little pre large store downtown I am sure it could work.
I remember in Chicago when Carsons was in business downtown, aside from their flagship store, they had a little little department store branch in one of the office buildings about 5 blocks from the main store. That little store only was open during the weekdays for office workers, and it seemed fine.
Downtown workers would take advantage of the retail if it was there.
Also I would be very cautious with the idea of subsidizing retail stores to open downtown. Pittsburgh did this, and both stores closed down. The interseting thing is Pittsburgh paid Lord & Taylor and Lazarus(now MACY'S) to open downtown, and both stores did not make the money they were suppose to and closed.
But Downtown Pittsburgh is home to the Kauffman's(now MACY'S) flagship store, and a Saks. Both stores do not recieve any government subsidy, and as of right now are doing fine. Infact Saks is doing so good that they are opening on Sunday's now.
So subsidy is not always the answer. The store have to offer good selection and be unique. That is what is important. |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 744
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 4:02 pm: | |
I want to touch on one point about Department stores and their so called demise.
What do people craze today? One stop shopping.
Why is the department store in trouble then?
My answer is because they have to many suburban branches.
The department store was legendary because those old downtown stores offered everything and the best selection.
But once stores started opening branches, not only did they start offering less selection, they also started serving the same population with more stores, making less money I think then they could if they had put focus on one downtown store like before.
If you look at department stores that are huge and still thriving like Galleries Lafayatte Le Bon Marche in Paris, Selfridges and Harrods in London, etc. All these places only have one store, that offers selection like you can't find anywhere else.
That is the key. Department stores in North America wrote their own demise with the idea that they needed a store in every single mall in the country.
So make whatever goes into downtown, better then the suburbs and it may have a chance at attracting not just downtown workers and people in the city, but a regional wide following. |
Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 4602
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 4:22 pm: | |
Why would the currency exchange rate factor into which casinos one went to as far as gambling was concerned?
The "winnings" at one would be reconverted back into the original currency of the home country. If there were a sizeable difference, I could see spending on some items or food/drinks in the cheaper country. Otherwise, it's just a wash. |
401don
Member
Username: 401don
Post Number: 36
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 4:34 pm: | |
Gamblers don't think logically. Many Detroit area people have said they like the fact that they can play longer(ads even ran saying your money goes further) at Windsor because of the exchange rate. I agree. By that logic you should just play nickel slots instead of quarter slots, etc. The 70 cent loonie is now worth more about $1.05 U.S. so that means the cheap meals in Windsor are gone as well. |
Onthe405
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Username: Onthe405
Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 4:46 pm: | |
The answer is probably "yes" and “no”. Downtown could, at some point, support a department store as the local population increases.
However, if you're thinking of something on the scale of the old JLH, I'll recite something from a nursery rhyme in response: "All the king's horses & all the king's men couldn't put humpty together again".
The fragmentation of retail into specialty stores and domination of these stores by national chains is more likely to continue to split into even tinier pieces before it is likely to re-group into one store. This is a fact, not an opinion, as I personally enjoyed shopping when I was young. Now I do it as a practical function of life and not as a positive experience, largely as a result of these changes.
The slowest growth in the retail is in the department store sector. As a matter of fact, it’s been in a precipitous decline for decades.
Interestingly, the most striking textbook example in the country of this has trend has its origins within the Detroit city limits. Shortly after Dayton’s & Hudson’s merged in the late 60’s, the folks at the MN headquarters thought they would try a little experimental pilot discount store with a twist (trendiness) in suburban Minneapolis named “Target”.
As the momentum of Target caught on like a CA wildfire across the country, Dayton-Hudson admirably retained their name, savvy, and philosophy firmly planted in their Midwest department store heritage.
In addition, they enhanced their department store division cache even further with the purchase of world-renowned Field’s in the 90’s, the tiffany gem of the trinity. On paper, this was ideal synergy: all three stores possessed strong identities to their respective cities, were famous for their quality/service, and created a dominant ring of department stores surrounding the Great Lakes.
Unfortunately, the purchasing habits of the country were working against this strategy. As Target continued to surge ahead, the department store division continued to falter. Corporations are all about profit and shareholder value, and the pressure from investors to sell off the “department store drag” on their P & L reached a feverish pitch by the turn of the century.
Reluctantly, their first step in preparation for the auction block was consolidation of the three names into a single brand. Field’s was chosen since it was the nameplate with most recognition throughout the country. Somewhat justifiably, this re-branding caused resistance in MI & MN, although the misguided notion that “Field’s took over our Hudson’s” was simply not true. Rather, it was the opposite: the products, service, corporate philosophy, and owners were the original Dayton-Hudson people. The name was the only change.
By the early 2000s, in preparation of the impending disposition of their department stores, they renamed the company from “The Dayton-Hudson Corporation” to the more accurate “Target Corporation”. The sale of Field’s to May Stores in 2004 represented a major milestone in both Dayton-Hudson (and department store) history in that even a juggernaut like Target couldn’t afford to keep the sector viable, and D-H, in turn, formally cut ties with their original roots.
In an act of desperation, due to a shrinking sector and increasing debt, the two remaining companies still operating regional department stores (May Stores & Federated Department Stores—parent to Messy*s) merged in 2005. This brings us to the present day. Federated re-branded all of it’s holdings under two names: Messy*s (famous for its parade and store size in Manhattan, also famous for their continued slide in quality, service, and reputation amongst New Yorkers & Californians who have continued to shun them for years now) and Bloomingdale’s.
In the true spirit of Midwest resolve, Chicagoans have basically pissed on Messy*s. Sales have plummeted in IL (particularly at the former State St Field’s) & MN since the sale. I hope Detroiters will join them. Hudson’s-Dayton’s-Field’s were comparable in terms of quality/service. Messy*s is a definite step down. Way down. Price scanners & shopping carts in a “fine” department store? I can almost hear Marshall Field, JL Hudson, and George Dayton rolling over in their graves. |
Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 4603
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 5:04 pm: | |
Wasn't the CBD or near-CDB population a helluva lot higher back when the downtown Hudson's closed than today? Yet, Hudson's (and all the others) closed.
Just what amount of population increase would it take to justify downtown shopping? Anyway, I do not see the population alone as being all that important by itself. The beauty with the strip malls and the mega malls is the clustering of nearby stores. Shoppers will not go downtown for any one store or boutiques unless they would go there for specialty items.
KK is trying to push for somebody to take over the empty casino. Maybe it might work for some Gibraltar-type store, but I even doubt that any store will want to go there.
Detroit's all-too-well-known shrinkage problems closed the Kroger's and Walgreens at 7 and Gratiot, and memories of those are not lost upon retailers. I'll bet that the mega K-Mart on Seven had mega shoplifters in 2000, to boot, because K-Mart closed it during its first of many mega store closings before it bellied up. |
Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr
Post Number: 828
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 5:14 pm: | |
quote:Shortly after Dayton’s & Hudson’s merged in the late 60’s, the folks at the MN headquarters thought they would try a little experimental pilot discount store with a twist (trendiness) in suburban Minneapolis named “Target”. Just a minor correction, Dayton opened the first Target before the 1969 merger, in 1962, the very same year as Wal-Mart, K-Mart, Woolco's, and Meijer's (as we know it now).
quote:Price scanners & shopping carts in a “fine” department store? Seriously? I don't often visit Macy's, so i have to take your word for it, but that is awful. We don't even have that stuff at Penneys, and we're traditionally a step or two below them. I will agree, I've heard nothing good about their service (or much of anything for that matter) since Macy's took over. Such a shame. They've killed off some great traditions.
quote:Do you know how much retail dollars those 100,000 daily people that are downtown have? that's true, however, despite lunchtime shopping, most people still prefer to shop near their own home. 100,000 workers nearby is not the same as 100,000 residents - a department store needs customers all throughout the week and especially the weekends, not just a few hours during the week.
quote:defunct , only a few stores left in there Not quite a dead mall yet, Penney's is opening a new store in the Manhattan Mall. Granted, JCP is nothing compared to, say, Macy's flagship store, but should certainly strengthen that mall quite a bit, and probably attract new interest.
In any case, any retail downtown, at least at first, is primarily going to serve residents. At this point, few will come downtown to shop the way they do in some cities. That's still years in the future. It's certainly possible, but to assume we'd make the jump from virtually no retail to a regional shopping mecca is little more than a pipe dream. Start small, and it will grow in time. |
Fastcarsfreedom
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Username: Fastcarsfreedom
Post Number: 190
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 5:15 pm: | |
Don't forget Crowley's held on in New Center One until relatively recently in the history of retail in Detroit. |
Iaintgotnostyle
Member
Username: Iaintgotnostyle
Post Number: 199
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 5:47 pm: | |
Scott,
I remember when Manhattan mall first opened. It was booming.
I went back last year and it went from what? 10 floors of retail to 2 I think?>
I don't know why that fell through as herald Square is basically the mecca for shopping in Manhattan and generally the 5 boroughs but like Detroit, I hope they can make it eventually work also.
On another note, ** Federated (Macey's) has basically bought up almost every single mom and pop dept store across the USA.
I dont know what their formula is but it works although, I love the original Maceys and whenever I can get to NYC I go there.
I really do wish someone could afford to re-open an old world dept store like Hudson's, Gimbel's, Wannamakers or Harrods here.
It would b nice to introduce the younger generation to shopping the way it used to be, an all day family affair. |
401don
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Username: 401don
Post Number: 38
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 5:52 pm: | |
The whole family could text message each other which dept. they were in. |
Fastcarsfreedom
Member
Username: Fastcarsfreedom
Post Number: 191
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 6:04 pm: | |
Miketoronto, the small Carson Pirie Scott branch in Riverside Plaza in Downtown Chicago still operates MON-FRI only 7:30AM to 6:00PM.
At this point the second Macy*s/Ex-Fields is also still operating at Water Tower Place on Michigan Avenue. The Lord & Taylor branch which is the other anchor in WTP is due to close at the end of this year. As a testament to the viability of department store retailing in Downtown Chicago, it appears slow-growing upscale department store chain Von Maur will occupy the vacated L&T space. All tolled that still gives The Loop 2 Macy*s, the small Carsons branch, Bloomingdales, Nordstrom, Sears and the L&T/Von Maur (Did I miss any?) |
Onthe405
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Username: Onthe405
Post Number: 8
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 6:17 pm: | |
Scott:
Thanks for reminding me about the earlier origins of Target. I had forgotten about that, since most of the major expansion didn't really start until the 70s.
I'm a Californian, and we have much longer history of experience with Macy*s than the Midwest. Like Chicagoans, Michiganders are smart shoppers and are big on tradition. Believe me; it won't be long before they figure out how junky & overpriced they are. It may take a year or two, but it will happen. We don’t call it Messy*s for nothing. The merchandise is disheveled, you can’t find help, the quality of the clothing is on par with Wal-Mart, and their fashion marketing is cheesy at best. A men’s line by Donald Trump? Who the h*ll would want to look like Donald Trump? Lines by Usher & “Puffy”? Somehow I don’t think they will remembered as the Brooks Bros or Ralph Lauren of their generation.
Out here, JCP has a much better reputation than M. They are almost considered equal. With the recent improvements at JCP, they are even pulling ahead. If someone is looking for high end, Nordstrom, Nieman’s, and Saks fit the bill. Their sales increases over Macy’s corresponding decline reflect there is a market for a department store, albeit a decent one.
The Manhattan store is a smart move on JCP's part. Sales at the M Herald Square store have been declining for years. Many of those former customers will end up at JCP, as there is pent up demand for a mid-tier store.
As for the price scanners & shopping carts at Messy*s? I’m dead serious. Stroll through the store if you don’t believe me. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2204
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 6:23 pm: | |
^I totally agree on Macy's quality. Marshall Field's had much better quality. |
Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr
Post Number: 832
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 6:28 pm: | |
iaintgotnostyle, i won't pretend to know much about Manhattan Mall, since i've never been there, but generally a major anchor like that, particularly one that hasn't been in Manhattan, is a pretty good sign that the mall still has some life in it. retail has its ups and downs, and some downs are pretty damn scary (i remember when my company's stock was so low some of us were expecting to be bought out any day), but i wouldn't write it off quite yet.
as for macy's 'formula', no, it really doesn't work at all. Just based on what i've heard of Macy's since they took over Hudson's (er, Marshall Field's), not only have i lost any interest in visiting the store across town, i've also lost most of my interest in visiting their flagship should i ever visit new york. This current strategy of destroying favorite local names in favor of what is now a watered down new york name is going to backfire on them in the end. They should have kept the old names, perhaps even restoring some that had been eliminated. Customers generally wouldn't realize that Marshall Fields=Hudson's=Kaufmann's=Mac y's (in my proposed FDS world, not reality...), even if they are merchandised exactly the same. But as it is now, why would i visit any other stores when i'm out of town? When I visited my brother in Syracuse before the merger, I wanted to see what a Kaufmanns was like. But if i went now, i wouldn't feel the same, because it's now a Macy's - which i can visit back home. Why bother?
In the end, Macy's has destroyed its own brand, and dozens of others are left to the history books.
I will agree with your sentiment regarding old-world department stores and the all-day family affairs. I can't say i've ever really had a taste of it myself, but honestly wish we could have that experience again, in a way i feel like i've been cheated out of something special in my life. I could write a dozen paragraphs about that sort of thing, but i'll leave that for another day. |
Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr
Post Number: 833
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 6:36 pm: | |
quote:Out here, JCP has a much better reputation than M. They are almost considered equal. With the recent improvements at JCP, they are even pulling ahead.
That's good to hear, glad to see it's being noticed. (if i didn't mention it, i work for jcp). and more improvements are coming, we've got some big new lines coming. including one by Ralph Lauren, actually. Better than Macy's with Martha Stewart (which is shameful, after she was with KMart)
I would walk through Macy's, but after hearing from my wife that there was no one staffed on the entire second floor (with signs at registers directing customers to the first floor), and various other complaints from many people, frankly, it's not worth the drive across town, or even the wear and tear on my shoes should i visit a mall with a Macy's. i do believe you though. |
Onthe405
Member
Username: Onthe405
Post Number: 9
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 6:37 pm: | |
Jim McKay maintains this website, and is one of many thousands protesting the decline in quality & service in Chicago.
He has responded to MI residents posting on the blog with a suggestion that they join the fight and also boycott M in an effort to force them to bring back the Hudson's name to Detroit.
Not just the name, but the quality brands, too.
Check it out:
http://www.fieldsfanschicago.o rg |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 687
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 6:39 pm: | |
we're getting 30 posts off-topic now. The main point of this thread was if any type of a department store could thrive in Downtown, not how good or bad of a quality store it is. this is turning into another The View discussion. |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 745
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 6:40 pm: | |
[quote]that's true, however, despite lunchtime shopping, most people still prefer to shop near their own home. 100,000 workers nearby is not the same as 100,000 residents - a department store needs customers all throughout the week and especially the weekends, not just a few hours during the week. [/quote]
I don't really think that is true. When downtown workers are interviewed, many say they would love to be able to shop downtown on lunch break, etc.
Why would you not want to shop downtown with the best stores within walking distance of work?
It is so much easier.
Any department store in downtown Detroit is going to have to cater to the large Black population in the inner city.
I don't think you can transplant a MACY's in there and expect it to take off without conforming to the local market.
(Message edited by miketoronto on November 15, 2007) |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2205
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 6:50 pm: | |
^Manhattan Mall is not dead, but drastically downsized from what it was when it opened. It has 4 levels of shopping (2 above ground and 2 below surface level). The other floors are converted to office space.
From my own perspective, what appears to work against Manhattan Mall is that there is plenty of street level retail in surrounding Herald Square. It seems to be a counterintuitive to walk past all of these other stores on the street (some of which have locations on the street and in MM), to go shop in a mall. Plus, there is currently no anchor store there.
JCPenney might work well there. Herald Square shopping tends to be geared towards a mid-level demographic. You have Daffy's right across the street from MM, which is about the same price range as JCPenney. Macy's or Banana Republic is about as expensive as you will find in that area. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2206
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 6:52 pm: | |
quote:Any department store in downtown Detroit is going to have to cater to the large Black population in the inner city.
I don't think you can transplant a MACY's in there and expect it to take off without conforming to the local market.
Black city residents have done well at keeping the Marshall Fields/Macy's locations in Fairlane, Northland and Eastland open... |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 690
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 6:54 pm: | |
That shouldn't be a problem. Just add the flavor that you know will fit best in it's environment. |
Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 691
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 6:55 pm: | |
The City of Detroit did it within 10 years. |
Iaintgotnostyle
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Username: Iaintgotnostyle
Post Number: 200
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 6:56 pm: | |
"From my own perspective, what appears to work against Manhattan Mall is that there is plenty of street level retail in surrounding Herald Square"
It could also be that getting from one floor to another was in itself a beast of burden. The layout of the escaltors and the only 4 elevators was not that great.
At least not for the amount of people shopping there in the beginning. I think it wore people down trying to get from one store to another and it taking forever.
(Message edited by iaintgotnostyle on November 15, 2007) |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 383
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 7:26 pm: | |
Below are links to 3 youtube videos showing downtown detroit foot traffic in 1954. Today, you can only match that level of activity on opening day, Fireworks night, or the superbowl.
You see foottraffic on the kern block and a bunch of places: the brass rail, the Gayety, the CPA building, briggs stadium, trolley cars galore.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =QQxrhiraoUg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =hRj4_qkqgXo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =xVhTdKnDUW0 |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 4606
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 7:38 pm: | |
The third of those videos probably ended with a brief shot along Livernois by the former long Lincoln plant. Just a guess...
Detroit will never regain that former level of everyday traffic and business activity. I was eleven years old when the videos were filmed. They reminded me of downtown Milwaukee or its arterial streets, which were also very busy then. Not so much going on today there either. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 697
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 7:41 pm: | |
I noticed Downtown is relatively low-rise and small in that video too. |
Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr
Post Number: 834
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 8:01 pm: | |
quote:I don't really think that is true. When downtown workers are interviewed, many say they would love to be able to shop downtown on lunch break, etc.
'love being able to' is a far cry from 'actually shopping' and especially 'buying'. With most lunch hours being, well, an hour, a workers lunchtime is in reality fairly limited to quick purchases. You'd like to think you have a lot of leisure time, but by the time you've grabbed even a quick bite to eat, WALK to the store (as you said 'walking distance'), get to the department you want, browse, select an item, get in line to purchase said item, walk back... you're generally talking more than an hour, unless all of your 100,000 workers happen to work right next door to this retail store. And while most workers we're talking about here probably do not have a strict 'lunch hour', they most likely cannot take half the day off to shop, and on top of that, even if they browse, few of them will actually buy anything during their lunch, preferring to 'come back when they have more time to look' (they don't.) Sure, after the work day is done, they could spend an hour or so shopping, but most days, most workers want to go home first, and then when they choose to go out shopping, they most often go to the stores closer to them.
As for your statement on the black population needing to support it, i think you are seriously mistaken on your assumption that it wouldn't be able to. |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 384
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 8:06 pm: | |
DR ... think you better take a look at all of them, you might want to change your opinion.
The reason I posted them was to let everyone know the level of street / foot traffic it will take to support even the smallest of Department stores. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 698
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 8:10 pm: | |
I seen them, but you have to admit the densest, tallest parts of Downtown was rather small compared to other Downtowns of cities with a population size similar to Detroit's. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 4608
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 8:21 pm: | |
Most of that traffic downtown was directed to that area because downtown Detroit is essentially tucked out of the way and nobody need go there otherwise. Downtown Milwaukee is around the confluence of three rivers emptying into its harbor. So, its traffic there was also directly involved with its business activity.
If the various DDOT or SMART buses didn't use downtown as a through or transfer point, then one would realize just how dead Detroit's CBD is during normal working hours--even when coming to and from work.
I was walking or jogging with the Downtown Runners a few years ago along Michigan Avenue, just west of Briggs heading downtown. During that entire stretch of four blocks or so we went along Michigan, not one motor vehicle went either direction that Tuesday evening. |
Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 2207
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 8:47 pm: | |
Isn't Michigan Avenue a popular spot for hookers? lol... |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 699
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 8:50 pm: | |
Yeah, Michigan and Livernois. I said that's the worst part of town (with the worser of the gang problems and prostitution). |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 746
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 9:00 pm: | |
Scottr downtown workers do shop downtown if there is shopping. I work in a downtown department store and we do tons of business at 1PM during lunch hour, and also at 5PM as downtown workers stay after they get off work to shop.
Why would you not take advantage of shopping right downtown if you work there, and not having to go to a seperate place after getting home, etc?
There are entire retail areas in many CBD's that do tons of business with the downtown workers. Hell in Toronto besides the normal downtown retail which is open seven days a week, there is a whole underground shopping network that caters to the office workers, and has hundreds of shops that do amazing business. Infact the TD CENTRE mall in the Toronto Financial District, which is basically only open Mon-Fri has the highest sales per sq foot of any mall in the Greater Toronto Area.
So downtown workers do shop downtown. They do it in NYC, Chicago, and just about any other city, including Detroit(if there was more stores).
Why would I want to go home and shop, when I have the largest selection in the region next to my downtown workplace?
Build more selection and Detroiters will shop downtown after work. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 701
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 10:47 pm: | |
^^^That's why you have the little Arcades inside the Office Towers downtown. |
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