 
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 644
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 09, 2007 - 8:53 pm: |    |
don't look a gift horse in the mouth
I'm guessing you think all the consumers are idiots for purchasing something they think is of a higher value.
I also assume that foreign companies are stupid for building plants here and that the big three are stupid for bring in cheap parts form overseas. |
Warrenite84
Member
Username: Warrenite84
Post Number: 161
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 3:22 am: | |
With our 'give everything away' trade policies, the deck is stacked against all American industry. Fair trade cannot be reached when businesses lobby Congress for cheap foreign parts, still sell at the same price, and pocket the extra as huge bonuses.
Absolutely nothing wrong with profit, but the,"I got mine and yours too." is ridiculous.
True fair trade opens the door equally to other markets, and provides loads of opportunity to lower our trade deficit, and increase our prosperity.
Our Congress has let us down for not bargaining trade pacts to our benefit. Throw the bums out and vote in those who are not protectionists, but certainly looking out for their constituents. |
Dds
Member
Username: Dds
Post Number: 461
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 9:00 am: | |
quote:I would venture to say 5 Mcdonalds joints hire that many people.
I'm sure if you had to choose to work for Toyota at 40k/year with good medical benefits plus double-time when offered or McDonald's you'd choose Mickey-D's because it's the "right" thing to do. At least I'd hope so.
But wait! They are importing a small quantity of their beef from Australia and New Zealand! Oh, the moral quandary! |
Wazootyman
Member
Username: Wazootyman
Post Number: 278
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 9:38 am: | |
It's the Wal-Mart "this product is cheaper" mentality that will continue to destroy this country's economy. Foreign manufacturers remain more competitive because their cost structures do not and have not compensated American workers anywhere near the level that the US manufacturers have. People seem to forget that for the last 50+ years, an entire economic class has been built upon domestic manufacturing. The foreign car companies are only building plants in the US to build products that are cheaper to assemble here than import. Profits and decisions are still ultimately made outside of this country. A handful of Toyota workers at an assembly plant is nothing compared to the combined wages of the designers, accountants, managers, suppliers and hundreds of support companies associated with building a car.
It's an unfortunate side-effect of decent wages and benefits that more outsourcing is being done. In order to maintain the vast benefits to the domestic workers, costs have to be cut from somewhere. It's basically a losing battle - we're continuing to choose the foreign, cheaper product, without realizing that such decisions are destroying our quality of life. I work for a supplier that can't even consider making a product domestically. Our costs would triple, and the OEMs would drop us without a second thought. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 195
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 11:48 am: | |
Dds, you missed the point Sstashmoo was making in his post #573. Open your mind instead of having tunnel vision.
Also, exactly what benefits do Americans glean from foreign automakers other than a weekly salary? Do they have the health care plans American autoworkers have, or had? Do they have a pension plan? Do they ever have job security? |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 564
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 11:54 am: | |
Wow, we have went from someone making a nice gesture to we must buy American products to just America. You people can be so idiotic and selfish when it comes to this stuff.
Again, thanks Toyota. I still buy American, but at least they're one company that knows the world would be nothing without Detroit.
(Message edited by DetroitRise on November 10, 2007) |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 565
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 11:56 am: | |
Let me remind you by the way that the gesture had NOTHING to do with Americans buying ANY of their products. I wish American companies would do the same for the city of Detroit. |
Warrenite84
Member
Username: Warrenite84
Post Number: 162
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 12:20 pm: | |
Innovations at the factory level are being lost along with jobs.
Amen Wazootyman, the floodgates have been opened and our manufacturing jobs are flowing away. With competitors using cheap imports it's nearly impossible to stand against that cost pressure.
Look at Levi's for an example. An American company can't make an American product like jeans domestically. They held out as long as they could before costs forced their hand.
The only way we can solve this is to push for a level trade policy. It will rub both ways but will open the door to many more markets than hamper ours. That said, protecting our manufacturing base so we can build our own armament to protect ourselves is most important.
If companies like Toyota are investing in America, we should too by buying American. |
Miesfan
Member
Username: Miesfan
Post Number: 33
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 12:24 pm: | |
quote:However, salary and benefits at these Southern auto plants consistently exceed average rates in the South and sometimes surpass compensation paid to union workers at domestic car factories. For instance, union officials at the Mercedes plant in Vance, Alabama, routinely fail to sign up enough workers to hold an election regarding unionization. Similarly, union officials at the Toyota plant in Georgetown, Kentucky, have largely been a neutralized presence for over two decades now. Their biggest obstacle: a contented Toyota work force. In Kentucky, where the average worker earned $36,000 last year, $70,000 a year Toyota jobs are eagerly sought.
http://www.slcatlanta.org/Publ ications/EconDev/Nashville_Aut o_Remarks.html |
Warrenite84
Member
Username: Warrenite84
Post Number: 163
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 12:29 pm: | |
Detroitrise, GM, Ford, and Chrysler, spend Millions in metro Detroit for many philanthropic causes. Sponsoring parades, fireworks, winter blasts, summer festivals(arts beats and eats), United Way, and who knows how many other charitable causes. This would be indeed a quiet suffering town without their largesse. |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 197
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 12:35 pm: | |
"Let me remind you by the way that the gesture had NOTHING to do with Americans buying ANY of their products. I wish American companies would do the same for the city of Detroit."
If you believe that, I have a bridge for sale that you may be interested in.
I guess GM, Ford and Chrysler never did anything for Detroit did they? Chrysler is one of the biggest companies in Detroit (Jefferson Plant); GM's name is still on the RenCen. Where is Toyota? Like someone said is a previous post, Kwame has paid out more in lawsuits because of his inept cronies and his own indiscretions and Detroiters don't complain a bit. Millions have been spent from City of Detroit funds to pay off and payout so many judgements against Kwame and his entourage that it should make every Detroiter's head spin. That money could have been directed to neighborhoods, schools, children, homeless....I could go on and on about the woes of Detroit. 2 Million is a nice gesture, but I'd like to know exactly what their motives are. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 572
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2007 - 4:44 pm: | |
Warrenite and Buyamerican, I wans't speaking specifically on them. Many of the big companies that were found/discovered in Detroit have just abandoned it and left the city to die. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 577
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 12:13 pm: | |
Quote " I work for a supplier that can't even consider making a product domestically. Our costs would triple, and the OEMs would drop us without a second thought."
And thats the real catch 22. It's not about profits, so much as just plain survival. Manufacturers either play ball or close up. For many there is no alternative.
We'll be imposing tarrifs on imports soon, confident prediction. Just like EVERYONE does to us. Canada, UK etc. They can ship things here with no tax, we try to ship there and it's taxed all over the place. |
Smogboy
Member
Username: Smogboy
Post Number: 6423
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 12:24 pm: | |
"2 Million is a nice gesture, but I'd like to know exactly what their motives are."
What if it's just PR for them or if they're just philanthropic? Last time I checked, they're not telling the Science Center Theater on how to use it, are they? |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 198
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 1:58 pm: | |
Supposedly Toyota donated the money to build the "Toyota Engineering Theatre". It "will feature active seating, a rotating stage and a system that allows live hosts to interact with virtual 3D presenters to profile stories of engineers from across the state."
I'm sure that they will feature engineers from Chrysler, Ford and GM as part of their presentations...duh!
WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA! |
Smogboy
Member
Username: Smogboy
Post Number: 6424
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 2:45 pm: | |
Again, Buyamerican- you're making all of these assumptions that Toyota has an alterior motive and until we have firm facts as to what those stories are- aren't we just being a bit paranoid? And who says that the stories are even about automotive engineers? What if they're about chemical engineers, mechanical engineers, biomedical engineers, etc. and not even anything remotely automotive? |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 199
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 3:02 pm: | |
Paranoid, no. Cautious, yes.
Americans are not their concern, I don't trust their motives.
We will just have to agree to disagree. |
Miesfan
Member
Username: Miesfan
Post Number: 39
Registered: 11-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 9:01 pm: | |
Buyamerican is your name Ronald Ebens by any chance?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R onald_Ebens |
Buyamerican
Member
Username: Buyamerican
Post Number: 200
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 11:17 pm: | |
miesfan, it's amazing to me that when a person like yourself can't come up with anything logical, the insults begin. That happens when you don't have answers and are backed against a wall. Hence, that's the only retaliation you have. Please take my advice on my previous post directed to you and don't waste your time trying to find things on the internet to insult people with, it's unbecoming, and most importantly, it doesn't change my mind about Toyota, Honda or the other foreign automakers. Just remember one thing, when the recession hits (and it will hit), ask Toyota to make your house payments, pay your bills, or feed your kids.
OUT OF A JOB YET? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN.
WHAT YOU DRIVE, DRIVES AMERICA! |
Smogboy
Member
Username: Smogboy
Post Number: 6427
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2007 - 11:26 pm: | |
Regardless of how one feels for foreign carmakers, I still think Responsibility One falls on the American carmakers to pull their heads out of the sand and make a competitive product. Quit blaming the foreign carmakers and hone up to being better than them. What happened to our supposedly superior American ingenuity? |
Jasoncw
Member
Username: Jasoncw
Post Number: 455
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 12:24 am: | |
Looks like we have another trainman. |
Rb336
Member
Username: Rb336
Post Number: 3497
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 9:13 am: | |
Do they have the health care plans American autoworkers have, or had? Do they have a pension plan? Do they ever have job security?
largely, yes, although there are increasing stresses between labor and management, at least in Georgetown, regarding issues such as job security and working conditions |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 578
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, November 12, 2007 - 1:02 pm: | |
Quote: "there are increasing stresses between labor and management, at least in Georgetown"
Typical southern pattern in regards to labor. Area is destitute, plant moves in, everyone is grateful. A few years later some get a paycheck ahead and start laying down demands, go out on strike, plant closes and moves to Mexico. That or something similar happens over and over throughout the south. Some plants, the employees sabotaged the products or staged sick-outs. |
Detrola
Member
Username: Detrola
Post Number: 60
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 1:28 pm: | |
What happens to local GM workers when you by a GM product that has only 51% US content and is assembled in Mexico. If that vehicle sells more units than a locally assembled vehicle, the local autoworker gets laid off. Chrysler's new mini van will be primarily built in Canada. Three shifts of Canadians will be working while Chrysler eliminates scores of US manufacturing jobs.
This issue is not as Black and White as many of you seem to make it. We want everything as cheap as we can get it. WALMART knows this, and they provide it. We are seeing the cost. Levi's made overseas, Toys from china covered in lead based paint. The paradox is we want everyone to be paid the highest possible salary, with a benefit and retirement package. We want these workers to be unionized and all products made in america.
Union made in America and Cheap do not go hand in hand. Sometimes you have to choose. Americans by and large choose with their wallets. My choice of Car was dictated by my wallet. I had $12,000 to spend on used car. I needed something reliable, still under warranty, with decent cargo room and 30 plus mpg. I bought a used Scion. I tried like hell to find a american made car that fit that criteria. Sorry no dice. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 3142
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 2:07 pm: | |
" The paradox is we want everyone to be paid the highest possible salary, with a benefit and retirement package."
Right. And I ask, why should someone with only a high school diploma be paid $50K or more (with benefits, retirement, etc.) to do manual labor on an assembly line? They didn't put the time in academically (or have to discipline themselves) to earn a college degree to warrant such a generous paycheck. They simply walked in to the factory's employment office and filled out an application. Presto, they're on the line, earning big bucks. Why?
It's not like factory jobs are unsafe any more; high wages no longer need to compensate for poor conditions in the workplace.
Let's face it: manual labor jobs that don't require higher education should pay $8 to $15 an hour (isn't that what employees at 7-11 make?). If U.S. workers earned that kind of money, domestic products could be priced to be more affordable, and more people would be "buying American."
And I don't accept the argument that higher wages are necessary to sustain a middle class. Throughout history, there's always been a solution to low wages: get a second (or third, if necessary) job. Or, get a college degree that will result in employability at a higher salary scale. Grants and loans for college are readily available; and some folks may need to work their way through school as well (like I did).
The existing high wage and benefit packages in U.S. manufacturing -- no matter what the specific industry is -- will simply result in more outsourcing and plant closings.
The unskilled American worker needs to bite the bullet and take a lower wage, period. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 6794
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 2:10 pm: | |
Foreign car companies are geeked about science! |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 581
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 13, 2007 - 2:34 pm: | |
Our government, if you want to call it that, is to blame. Our trade secretary said the other day "We have to fight for the right to trade with China". Think this SOB cares about our country? |
Warrenite84
Member
Username: Warrenite84
Post Number: 169
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 3:05 am: | |
Fury13,
"It's not like factory jobs are unsafe anymore; high wages no longer need to compensate for poor conditions in the workplace."
Apparently you've never worked in a factory before. Let me give you a peek at what it is like working in a stamping plant: Say you are running one of our 40 million dollar press lines. It's about 60 feet wide by 200 ft. long and three storeys high. The control panels that manage this complex machine have over 150 different control screens, to turn on and off hundreds of switches and hydraulic pumps.
Because the company is too cheap to fix items, many breakdowns and oil leaks occur. This produces bad panels that have to be pulled out of a die by hand. Many of these panels weigh 100 lbs., are covered with hazardous chemicals, have razor sharp edges, and are as big as 6 x 14 FEET. Even if you had had a helper, climbing into a press with a 50,000 lb. upper die over your head, oily slippery floors, in 95 degree factory heat(summer), is not a walk in the park.
With all the back strains, lacerations, carpal tunnel injuries, and hernias I've seen, don't DARE tell me factories are no longer unsafe, hazardous places to work.
Just because some of us use are brains and muscles and get dirty on the job is no reason to deny us a chance at the American Dream like you.
Despite what you've heard we do earn our pay. We build more cars today with only one quarter of our late 70's workforce.
Obviously, higher wages do sustain a middle class. Yes, people working multiple lower wage jobs can attain a middle class status. What does that do for quality of life? People strive for higher classes to achieve a higher quality of life, and they shouldn't have to bust their ass to get there.
You also probably think that the cost of cars will go down because of the pay cuts. WRONG. It just means we won't be able to afford a lot of what we make, AND WHAT YOU MAKE, (sorry, you don't make anything), SERVICE YOU PROVIDE. I can get it cheaper elsewhere. |
Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13
Post Number: 3195
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 11:12 am: | |
Warrenite: don't assume anything. I HAVE worked in factories before -- back in the '70s when conditions weren't even as good as they are now. I wanted a better life, so I busted my ass in college, and it took me a decade to pay off the loans. Discipline, my friend.
Don't make this a class issue -- I pulled myself up.
I know about hard work; I've gotten plenty dirty in the past (and still do, from time to time). My view is still that a lot of the unskilled labor in this country is overpaid. |
Warrenite84
Member
Username: Warrenite84
Post Number: 171
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 8:31 pm: | |
A person's wage is what a company and applicant agrees it is. I just have a bargaining partner, whom I pay, to help me with negotiations. If the unions falter, all of America's wages will be affected. Health and safety too.
Ever wonder why illegal aliens pick our crops and do our undesirable jobs? They don't pay a REASONABLE wage. THAT'S what makes them undesirable.
Soon, domestic auto factories could be the next haven for illegal workers. These actions, along with poor trade policies, will split the middle class. Some will climb up, but most will slide into a growing lower class. This will raise the crime rate.
I myself am going back to school to open a few more doors of opportunity if I need them.
I regretfully voted for the contract but needed to secure a soft landing for myself until my degree is complete.
The thing about education is that by getting one, your financial situation should become more secure. That is not the case. Look at all the computer and medical diagnostic jobs that bled away to India and Asia. Our wonderful one-way trade policies at work. |
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