  Number1 Member Username: Number1 Post Number: 26 Registered: 07-2007 |
I was wondering if anyone saw this article: http://www.dailytribune.com/st ories/102607/loc_transit001.sh tml | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 900 Registered: 12-2006 |
Thanks. This is probably related, at least somewhat, to a redevelopment plan the City of Troy commissioned a year or two ago, to look at redeveloping the Big Beaver corridor. One of the things that plan indicated would be helpful was improved transit in the corridor. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1921 Registered: 10-2006 |
Transit is expensive and does not usually carry a large number of passengers, BUT it creates great locations for development. Developers have a tough time resisting transit oriented developments. Therefore, while those riding on the light rail may not pay for the service with their user fees, often the development occurring around the transit can more than make up the difference by spurring growth. There is large upfront cost (esp. in an economy that isn't doing the best), but unlike most expenditures, it is an investment toward future growth. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2574 Registered: 06-2006 |
"People really want to live, work and play in walkable communities." --Michelle Hodges, president of the Troy Chamber of Commerce | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3620 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: You know what else is expensive and doesn't usually carry a large number of passengers? A car. | ||
The_ed Member Username: The_ed Post Number: 498 Registered: 10-2007 |
A new transit center will be a nice touch for the residents there and for those of us who work in that area. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2575 Registered: 06-2006 |
^more importantly, the tone of the article sounds as though at least some people in Troy are on board with the idea of a light rail and commuter rail and realize their importance to retaining and attracting residents... If Troy is on board, then a regional system is much more likely to happen, since that's where the money and influence is at. (Message edited by thejesus on October 31, 2007) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3622 Registered: 10-2003 |
Kudos to the people in Troy for finally beginning to figure this out. Now, they'll just have to get some actual transit serving this hub, because no one is going to ride a bus that shows up once an hour. | ||
Kpm Member Username: Kpm Post Number: 68 Registered: 08-2005 |
The area being discussed for the transit center is dense (comparably) and walkable. I really enjoyed living there; and there is a lot of development going on now, including: http://thedistrictlofts.com/ho me1.html http://www.crosswindsus.com/mi chigan/birmingham_eton_street/ eton.htm Midtown Square townhouse condos (almost sold out) A new transit center on Maple would be great! | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 6742 Registered: 02-2004 |
Welcome to the forum Number1, Will this new transit center in Downtown Troy will serve the SMART bus system or will it serve it own transit lines? | ||
Higgs1634 Member Username: Higgs1634 Post Number: 208 Registered: 10-2005 |
quote: those 20-30 yr olds will be in their 40-50s and long gone from the region by the time this project gets off the ground and gets completed. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3626 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Yes, because there will be no more 20 and 30-somethings after the current crop. Continuity of the species-atcha. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2577 Registered: 06-2006 |
From Detroitrising... "Troy-Birmingham Transit Center-The city of Troy are planning to build a new train station on a 5-acre site next to the Midtown Square development. The new station will be 17,500 square feet and will eventually include a 4-story parking deck and drop-off points for taxis and limousines. Troy has 4 years to get the project partially completed or it will revert back to the original owners. Long-term plans are for the station to be a stop on a possible commuter rail line. In July 2006, Troy was awarded a $350,000 grant from MDOT to fund the $4.5 million project. PROPOSED"  | ||
Gingellgirl Member Username: Gingellgirl Post Number: 71 Registered: 04-2007 |
Will the Troy-Birmingham Transit Center be the new end of the line station for Amtrak? It looks like the Pontiac station is on its last legs. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10636 Registered: 10-2003 |
Glad to see they are thinking forward about transit. Every city that embraces the idea gets us one step closer to a regional system. Now a few thoughts: 1. It is imperative that projects like these continue to think about regional transit (looks like that is what they are doing) 2. These projects spur a real regional master plan for transit as opposed to the typical SE Michigan 20 projects run in a vacuum type mentality. One concern and I am sure it is an oversight in the what tj posted is that there isn't mention of it being a drop off/pick up location for SMART. I have to assume that it will be but if not that is a major oversight. | ||
Higgs1634 Member Username: Higgs1634 Post Number: 209 Registered: 10-2005 |
quote: Continuity of the species? yes. Continuity of the regional population of that subset of species? Maybe not. Not a lot of encouraging economic or population indicators to infer this is a growth region. It would be nice if one of these studies (which all seem to come to the same conclusion that the region would benefit from mass transit) would actually result in action... sometime in my lifetime would also be nice. | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 139 Registered: 10-2006 |
This is no different than that crazy "downtown" West Bloomfield proposal. Why would someone who wants a transit-oriented, walkable community consider Troy? Why not just move to adjacent communities in the Woodward corridor? Troy is completely unwalkable and has almost no transit. It's completely built out with ridiculous sprawl, so unless you demolish the city and start over, you will not achieve a walkable or transit-oriented community. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 216 Registered: 07-2007 |
"Troy is completely unwalkable and has almost no transit. It's completely built out with ridiculous sprawl, so unless you demolish the city and start over, you will not achieve a walkable or transit-oriented community." You're right, who would ever do anything like that in Troy, knocking down some sprawl and building something more dense and walkable, like that crazy idea for the old K-Mart headquarters...oh wait. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1923 Registered: 10-2006 |
"Troy is completely unwalkable and has almost no transit. It's completely built out with ridiculous sprawl..." ...because it doesn't have transit around which much denser 'transit oriented development' can take place... | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 140 Registered: 10-2006 |
Um, Novine, even the Kmart proposal developers wouldn't ever claim that their proposal is "knocking down some sprawl and building something more dense and walkable". If built (I doubt it in this economy), sprawl will be replacing sprawl, and it will actually be less dense than the existing K-Mart building. Not sure how a suburban shopping center is more walkable then a suburban office building. Do you think their target market plans to walk for miles down sidewalk-free Dequindre or Crooks road to shop at Linens and Things? Perhaps Bloomfield Ladies that Lunch will board a nonexistent Smart bus to Big Beaver? | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 6751 Registered: 02-2004 |
Troy needs to be a walkable suburb in order to attract more people. It needs to join the public transit ladder like Royal Oak, Birmingham and Ferndale. It's doesn't need to be a drive-by suburbs where people get into their cars and drive to a nearest big box giganto-marts. Troy needs a walkable new Downtown so it could catch up with those three Oakland County cities. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 901 Registered: 12-2006 |
Actually, if you look at Troy's plan to redevelop the Big Beaver corridor, essentially the concept is to keep what is already high density development and make it a little more pedestrian-friendly and not quite so auto-centric. It's not a massive change, but would make the area nicer. If you work in the corridor now, going out for lunch is quite a chore; that is one of the things they'd like to change. Improving transit is identified in the document as one component of the vision. Hie on over to the Troy Planning Dept., they'll be happy to show it to you. | ||
Kpm Member Username: Kpm Post Number: 70 Registered: 08-2005 |
Just want to point out that the proposed transit center location(s) hug the Birmingham border in a relatively dense area. Not the single family homes with large lots and cul-de-sacs that are populous in Troy. The area around the station seems to attract younger residents. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3633 Registered: 10-2003 |
If it doesn't involve scaling down Big Beaver, then it's not going to be much of an improvement. And I think that's the first time I've heard that area labeled as "high density". | ||
Transitrider Member Username: Transitrider Post Number: 27 Registered: 01-2007 |
Despite not historically being a good example of development, it's good to see Troy try to reform its built environment. I see this complementing existing TOD in Ferndale, Royal Oak, and Birmingham. This also has the opportunity to provide a pedestrian-friendly interface with auto-centric destinations like the Big Beaver/Somerset corridor. This transit center will replace the Birmingham Amtrak platform at Maple. The center is also the focus of of the UM/ULI conference next week: http://www.metromodemedia.com/ devnews/umuliconf0040.aspx The Briefing Book on the conference website (no longer available?) shows some draft maps of the site and possible layouts. There was also a map of transit corridor connections. | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 263 Registered: 07-2005 |
There is pretty good density in that location. The Midtown project is I believe approximately 300 townhouses crammed into a fairly tight space. These units are built and occupied. The area North of 15 mile between Coolidge and Eton is lined with 2 and 3 story apartment buildings and condos. the South West Corner of Eton and 15 mile is full of 2-3 story apartments and condos. The Crosswinds development is half built and will contain about 250 units when complete. This development consists of 3.5 story townhouses and live work's (condo over a work space). The new District lofts are under construction and will consist of about 40 units (I think) in two four story buildings. All told there will probably be over 1,000 households (apartments and condos-not single family homes) within an easy 10 minute walk of the transit center. This does not include future developments proposed for the Rail District area, nor does it include the multitude of single family houses that are across Eton (these neighborhoods are fairly walkable as the homes are on small lots). The proposed transit center location is about a 20 minute walk from the heart of downtown Birmingham. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3635 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: That's still not incredibly high density. One thousand households x 3 members per household (assumed--a bit conservative) = 3000 people. 10 minute walk = 1/2 mile radius = 0.785 miles. 3000/0.785 = 3820 persons/sq mi. | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 264 Registered: 07-2005 |
It is not "incredibly high density". But there is some significant density. Using a 1/2 mile radius would not be appropriate when determining how dense the area is. The 1,000 units are not spread out evenly over that area. They are grouped to the North, North East and North West of the proposed transit center. Actually, 90% of these units would probably be within about a 1/4 mile from the transit center. Also, there are significantly more than 1,000 households within 1/2 mile if you count the single family housing. My point is that there are (or soon will be) about 1,000 multi family housing units in a relatively small area (thus creating some notable density) and they are clustered near the proposed transit center. If I was more technically savvy I would include a map in my post. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 219 Registered: 07-2007 |
"That's still not incredibly high density." Danindc, you're right but it's all relative in Oakland County. I remember seeing a map of census tracts and there's one tract in Novi that's among the highest in the OC because it had over 5,000 people in a square mile. Most of OC is much lower density. As to the earlier comment about the redevelopment of the K-Mart site, the plans I've seen show a very walkable site. The point is that none of that happens overnight. But if Troy continues on a trend of adding density through redevelopment and that new development is walkable, you start building the demand for more alternatives, like transit. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2045 Registered: 04-2006 |
So is Troy interested in building a train station with a train line that connects to Detroit? | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2578 Registered: 06-2006 |
"So is Troy interested in building a train station with a train line that connects to Detroit?" They already have one of those. This just an improvement over what is already in place. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10638 Registered: 10-2003 |
While I am guessing it is the Birmingham stop on this list, I am not certian if this is not all encompassing list since it is Amtrak stops. Here is a list of city with stops by Amtrak in Michigan: MI Albion, MI Ann Arbor, MI Bangor, MI Battle Creek, MI Big Rapids, MI Birmingham, MI Boyne City, MI Boyne Falls, MI Cadillac, MI Dearborn, MI Detroit, MI Dowagiac, MI Durand, MI East Lansing, MI Flint, MI Grand Rapids, MI Greenfield Village, MI Holland, MI Howard City, MI Jackson, MI Kalamazoo, MI Kalkaska, MI Kingsley - Bus Station, MI Lapeer, MI Mackinaw City, MI Mancelona, MI Manton - Bus Station, MI New Buffalo, MI Niles, MI Pellston, MI Petoskey, MI Pontiac, MI Port Huron, MI Reed City, MI Rockford, MI Royal Oak, MI St. Ignace, MI St. Joseph, MI Traverse City, MI Walloon Lake, MI | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2046 Registered: 04-2006 |
I guess my question is better stated, is this the beginning of the revival of a SEMPTA-esque commuter rail line? (Message edited by iheartthed on November 01, 2007) | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10639 Registered: 10-2003 |
Probably not but it is one step towards the region looking at regional solutions. | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 220 Registered: 07-2007 |
"Here is a list of city with stops by Amtrak in Michigan" Where did you come up with that list? There's no Amtrak service to many of those cities? Can you get on a bus and get to an Amtrak station from one of those cities? I suppose so. But that's not the same as having actually Amtrak service to those locations. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10640 Registered: 10-2003 |
The list came from Amtrak.com: http://stations.amtrak.com/amt rak/StationSearchResults.jsp | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 222 Registered: 07-2007 |
Run that search excluding bus service and that will be the cities that have an actual Amtrak station or stop. 1. Albion, MI (ALI) 2. Ann Arbor, MI (ARB) 3. Bangor, MI (BAM) 4. Birmingham, MI (BMM) 5. Battle Creek, MI (BTL) 6. Dearborn, MI (DER) 7. Detroit, MI (DET) 8. Jackson, MI (JXN) 9. Kalamazoo, MI (KAL) 10. East Lansing, MI (LNS) 11. Lapeer, MI (LPE) 12. Niles, MI (NLS) 13. Port Huron, MI (PTH) 14. Royal Oak, MI (ROY) 15. Greenfield Village, MI (GFV) | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 573 Registered: 08-2007 |
Thanks for the Amtrak clarification...not to mention they make only a few stops a day as part of a larger route. Is Amtrak slated for service just in this area? I don't see how they fit in to the larger goal of mass transit here. They struggle enough on their own as it is and the govt. has been wanting to privatize them for long time now. | ||
Transitrider Member Username: Transitrider Post Number: 28 Registered: 01-2007 |
To tie this back to the Troy/Birmingham Transit Center, if you live in the OC, and want to head west, you could take your local transit (SMART bus, regional rapid transit TBD, whatever) to the TC, and then hop on the Amtrak train to points west (AA, Kzoo, Chicago, etc.) Or take the Regional Commuter/Intercity Rail to Metro Airport or Ypsi. In any case, this new TC helps connect pedestrians, downtown B'ham, and all modes of transportation, current (buses, personal vehicles, trains, taxis, bikes, feet) and future (light rail, BRT, streetcar, etc.) | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 3325 Registered: 10-2003 |
I don't think any city has successfully created a walkable environment where there wasn't already one present from decades ago. Royal Oak, Birmingham and Ferndale already had their dense little walkable downtowns, because that's the way things were built back in the day. They are usually seperate buildings that are butted up next to each other. That's way too expensive nowadays. Anything built to mimick that now is just a strip mall with the doorways up by the sidewalks instead of across a sea of parking. It's an improvement, but it's nothing like the real thing. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3657 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: I'm not sure I understand that comment, but that's for a different thread. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 3328 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well I was attempting to describe the difference between old downtowns, and the pre-fab "walkable retail" you see going up nowadays. Usually the pre-fab downtowns are single buildings with multiple spaces made to mimick seperate buildings all in a line, rather than being seperate buildings. But you're right, I'm off topic. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10642 Registered: 10-2003 |
Novine - Thanks for the clarification. |
