 
Lowell
Board Administrator
Username: Lowell
Post Number: 4292
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 11:04 am: |    |
This discussion shows what makes a great rivalry -- it really hurts to lose, especially when hopes get high. Just when we are walking over the hated Yankees they pull off a ninth inning rally and ride away in their limousines.
MSU fans now know what Michigan fans feel like toward Ohio State. Three straight years losses, high hopes crushed - all the symptoms of dealing with death -- shock, denial, grief, anger...
The whole psychology of fandom, which I am caught up in, fascinates me. An immense media industry is built around it and what does it deliver to the paying customers? Bragging rights for a year? An excuse the scream out at the top of you lungs, something denied by convention in every day life? The better the rivalry the bigger the kick. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 3931
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 12:37 pm: | |
OSU-Michigan is a balanced rivalry where each side hates the other to quite an extent. MSU-UM is unbalanced, has almost continuously been unbalanced except for the late 50s and 60s (it swung heavily to MSU's side for the 60s), and the hatred MSU has for UM is not matched with a commensurate hatred in the opposite direction. I think Sparties sense that Wolverines are above them, and thus arrogant, because so many Wolverines refuse to acknowledge the rivalry. Honestly, I think MSU should be rotated in and out of UM's Big Ten schedule like Iowa, Minnesota, and Indiana are. You can't have a great rivalry when one school operates continuously at a much higher level. MSU hates UM a ton, but guess what, Illinois and Wisconsin, and Minnesota say that we're their biggest rival, too. Those games just don't have a media circus surrounding them.
Just think: all that gusto and hatred MSU brings with them into games vs. UM are only enough to squeak out a win once approximately every six years. That almost happened yesterday, and was aided by Hart's absence for much of the game and a funky offensive approach in the 2nd-3rd quarters by DeBord, but the better team still poured it on when they needed to: just like against Minnesota, and just like against Illinois. Other than the fact that we have to hear your constant nagging, the MSU football game has little added significance for UM.
Likewise, UM-MSU basketball is not a good rivalry until it gets more even and more meaningful games are played. It has swung in that direction the last two years, but Michigan will have to win throughout the next couple years to make it something better. It's also handy that OSU has a good bball team now, and that's something else we can try to beat them in.
Lowell, I agree with your thoughts about the psychology.
Wazooty, go to a game at Michigan Stadium and you'll see the definition of class. If you think a stadium and program with a heritage that makes it the Boston Red Sox or NY Yankees of football, full of fans who are knowledgeable and have high expectations, equates to a lack of class, then you don't know what class is. |
Hooha
Member
Username: Hooha
Post Number: 149
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 2:02 pm: | |
Wazootyman extrapolates his negative experience with a few michigan fans and ignores the class and sportsmanship of a million others. I don't blame you though. It's not like when somebody doesn't take the time to rub it in, you stop and think about how nice it was.
Look, every fanbase thinks their rivals are a bunch of jerks. I can trade useless stories about MSU fans berating Michigan kids about things non-football related because Sparty is running out of material. Does that mean you're all jerks? Nope.
Btw, you don't know what belligerent is:
http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=748 1
Are all Penn State fans animals now? I see more than a few there. |
Mayor_sekou
Member
Username: Mayor_sekou
Post Number: 1667
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 2:06 pm: | |
Im glad I didn't post at all last week. But oh well we lost the game but afterwards I like a lot of Spartans won a much larger battle partying with Spartan women which is something the average actual student Wolverine can only wish they were doing, lol.
GO GREEN
Next Year
MSU: 27
UM: 17 |
Scooter2k7
Member
Username: Scooter2k7
Post Number: 8
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 3:17 pm: | |
Who cares, Michigan or Michigan State. I went to Saginaw Valley. Why does everyone radio or television station in this state think you to be either a Wolverine or a Spartan. I am a Cardinal. I hat UofM and MSU, both are arrogant and not as great as they think! |
Alan55
Member
Username: Alan55
Post Number: 713
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 4:10 pm: | |
You "hat" U of M and MSU? I guess you did go to Saginaw Valley. |
Schulzte1
Member
Username: Schulzte1
Post Number: 94
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 6:26 pm: | |
I can guarantee you all that MSU has no inferiority complex. We have a better campus, a more well-rounded academic program, better accessability to students from different backgrounds, and yes, a great agricultural program, of which I am proud to call myself a graduate. May those who call MSU "Michigan Agricultural College" as an insult starve to death! |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 3932
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 7:43 pm: | |
Denying the obvious (like the relative academic stature to the two schools), changing the subject (away from sports), and citing subjective factors like which campus is better are pretty sure signs of an inferiority complex.
Moooo. |
Goblue
Member
Username: Goblue
Post Number: 512
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 9:22 pm: | |
Amen Mackinaw....methinks Schulzte1 doth protest too loudly! In all likelihood he'll think the adjusted quote came from a football coach. |
Schulzte1
Member
Username: Schulzte1
Post Number: 95
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 9:38 pm: | |
I've just illustrated several areas where MSU is superior to U of M. How does that prove an inferiority complex? That is as senseless as a sentence formed by Jim Brandstetter. And...and...and...yes, U of M law school is better than MSU. Great. Enjoy a frivolous law suit with a side of Ann Arbor brand pomposity for breakfast tomorrow morning. Just don't have a glass of milk with it, that beverage is apparently beneath you |
Eastside61
Member
Username: Eastside61
Post Number: 389
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 9:41 pm: | |
GB - side with the Old mackinaw all you want....Schultzte has signed an agreement to always stock our shelves if needed...but you better scroll up and read about Bronco "gene".......u da man....at least at the graduate level I did pick a major university - San Jose State University and ......YES! they are the SPARTANS!•••
GO
SPARTANS!••• |
Ray
Member
Username: Ray
Post Number: 1036
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 10:02 pm: | |
In response to the opening post, my view is that nothing in Michigan, including MSU or UM, can be called "real world." Michigan is more like "surreal world," a flaw in the space-time continuum in which logic and conventional thinking of 21st century America do not apply. |
Scooter2k7
Member
Username: Scooter2k7
Post Number: 9
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 10:21 pm: | |
You "hat" U of M and MSU? I guess you did go to Saginaw Valley.
At least I went to college because if you did you would know that is called a "TYP-O" |
Alan55
Member
Username: Alan55
Post Number: 715
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 10:48 pm: | |
Hey, hey, don't hat me just because I pointed out your educational shortcomings. |
Scooter2k7
Member
Username: Scooter2k7
Post Number: 10
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 11:05 pm: | |
My point exactly |
Crawford
Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 142
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 12:23 am: | |
Michigan deserved to win, but I will always favor State, as I always found them much easier to support. Supporting U-M is like rooting for the Evil Empire. Even most of my U-M friends are not fans of their mercenary football teams.
I think the minority of jerkoff Michigan fans are unrealted to the U, or are undergrads with a perceived inferiority complex. They know that (outside the state) they are perceived as a safety school for the Ivy League and despite their "Harvard of the Midwest" bravado are rarely ranked academically even in the Top 20, so they overcompensate with bluster and hyperbole. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 3933
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 12:33 am: | |
I'm having a tough time following this at this point, but Schultze, you pointed out one category where MSU is objectively superior, agricultural programs (I'll add vetereinary science and journalism, which UM also lacks), but the other things you mentioned like being "well-rounded," having a "better campus," and being "more accessible," are subjective. UM has a massive endowment to pay for low-income people who deserve to be here. Different backgrounds? How bout 10,000 people from outside of Michigan. And well-rounded academics...wtf does that mean? If UM LS&A isn't well-rounded I don't know what is. |
Eastside61
Member
Username: Eastside61
Post Number: 393
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 1:08 am: | |
Mackinaw......Get in your BMW and drive over to E Lansing....check out the campus.....walk through some classroom buildings .... go to the international center.....hang out at the MSU union...and walk by a dorm......the Diversity of students and programs cannot be matched by what goes on in Ann Arbor.....get real!••• Just talk to Go Blue.....he is now wearing a green polo shirt and recruiting students from Arizona.....to attend MSU...the real University of Michigan |
Mallory
Member
Username: Mallory
Post Number: 212
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 8:45 am: | |
Personally, I'm a born and raised Wolverine, though I attended Wayne State. Went to more than my share of games over the years, and proud to spread "M go Blue" in my new home state of Florida. Talk about a state that is proud of their football.
My wife is a Spartan grad, and I lived in Lansing for three years. To me, both schools are great institutions of higher learning, each in its own right. For me though, I will always be a Wolverine first, Big 10 supporter second, and anyone who plays Notre Dame.
There's a whole other conversation: the Fighting Irish, a school that doesn't even know what their own colors are. Officially they are blue and gold, but everyone wears green. Losers. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 363
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 8:45 am: | |
Mackinaw,
Here are some other things MSU is better at.
#1 Packaging Engineering program in the country
#1 Hospitality Business Management program in the country
A top flight education program
#19 in the 2007 Forbes Magazine list of top business schools (Michigan was not even ranked in the top 56)
Something pertaining to the interests of a lot of people on this board, MSU is one of only 12 universities in the country with an accredited undergraduate Planning program. Michigan is not one of the other 11.
Now don't mistake pride in my university for jealousy of yours. Michigan is a fine school with a fine academic record. They deserve every accolade they receive. However, Michigan State is ALSO a fine school with a fine academic record. We have every right to be proud of our accomplishments as a university as well. We also deserve the right to defend our school from arrogant pricks like you who need to inflate their own self-esteem by bashing other schools. Get over the fact that the Ivy League didn't want you (which includes referring to Michigan as the Ivy League of the Midwest. It isn't. Northwestern has a better shot at that) and get over yourself.
Arrogance is not something to be proud of. You guys won. Good for you. But don't act like it was something truly amazing. If Hart isn't there to get that fumble and turn disaster into a big play, that game is an EASY MSU victory. ONE play turned the tide of that game.
So win with grace. Show some class. I know this is asking a lot, but perhaps even an old dog can be taught new tricks. |
Kenp
Member
Username: Kenp
Post Number: 861
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 8:58 am: | |
This was a good thread until Schultze arrives with his whine. Both schools are good, get a life dude. |
Jtw
Member
Username: Jtw
Post Number: 189
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 9:21 am: | |
El_jimbo - remember that MSU had a disaster turn into a big play too...
when javon ringer was practically down for a huge loss and turned it into a 70 yard run? that was arguably a bigger play than the fortuitous bounce to hart. had he been tackled, MSU probably doesn't score and michigan runs away with the game.
and just to clarify, is calling UM fans "arrogant pricks" doing what you ask of them, ie "Show some class"? i get it, they're both good schools. |
El_jimbo
Member
Username: El_jimbo
Post Number: 364
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 9:38 am: | |
Jtw,
At this point, I have already given up on expecting certain Michigan fans to ever show class. To those that show no class, none is given. To those that do show class, I will return the favor.
As for the ringer play, yes, you are correct. That was a huge play. However, I wouldn't say that would have been a total game changer the way the fumble was. MSU had already put together one impressive drive and was moving continuing to move the ball effectively. It ended up being a huge play. But if it had ended poorly for MSU I don't think it would have had the same significance as the fumble. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 6761
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 10:10 am: | |
GO GREEN!! GO SPARTANS |
Ohudson
Member
Username: Ohudson
Post Number: 291
Registered: 09-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 10:57 am: | |
Unfortunately the game went as the season has gone for MSU. They didn't finish the game! It's frustrating to see a team that could and should be 9-1 instead of 5-5. Play to win PLEASE!!
You never want shoulda woulda coulda claims hanging over your head but MSU has cornered the market.....
UM was baiting the MSU DBs into cheating up that whole last drive. It was only a matter of time before Henne threw over the top for a TD. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 3934
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 11:35 am: | |
Good points, Ohudson.
This will grind the gears of all you sparties: http://media.www.michigandaily .com/media/storage/paper851/ne ws/2007/11/05/Football/Scott.B ellmichigan.Man.Redefined-3078 090.shtml |
Ohudson
Member
Username: Ohudson
Post Number: 292
Registered: 09-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 12:19 pm: | |
I had never heard about that statement, I was wondering what was going on after the game....
The funny part was when Hart mentioned MSU being a little brother and his basketball analogy... Basketball is the last thing that UM can talk trash about in the UM-MSU rivalry..
I just read the article Lynn Henning of the Detroit News wrote and I have to agree with him. It all boils down to talent level, mainly depth of talent. UM has more talent. MSU showcased its very talented RBs and that's when the Spartans took control of the game. The moment that MSU needed Hoyer to make a play I got real nervous. He's a "Trent Dilfer-don't F-Up the game for us" type of QB. He hasn't done anything to show that he's capable of leading the team to a win.
Devin Thomas is MSUs only quality receiver besides the tight end that doesn't get the ball thrown to him.
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20071104/OPINI ON03/711040333/1132/SPORTS0202 |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 3935
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 4:05 pm: | |
D'Antonio is already giving UM bulletin board material for next year's game: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20071105/SPO RTS07/71105034/1048/SPORTS
It really is not in his best interest to try to make this a mutual rivalry that UM will get pumped up for. Look at the last six years' results when it hasn't even had this element of hatred.
He sounds just as feisty as the sparties on this forum.
Speaking objectively, though, I just don't think it's a good idea for him to make UM more of a rival. He's emphasized to his team that they need to beat UM, and they did their best and had a good shot. He has them in position. By saying stuff like this, he will only make UM raise their game to a higher level when the two teams face off again. |
Mayor_sekou
Member
Username: Mayor_sekou
Post Number: 1670
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 4:40 pm: | |
So Mackinaw are you suggesting that they don't raise their game when they play State? That's a first.
Well in 5 years I predict if Dantonio stays the course MSU will be the new Ohio State which I would much rather be than what we are now or another Michigan. I still say they go 7-5 and I still think Michigan falls to OSU. |
Kenp
Member
Username: Kenp
Post Number: 865
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 4:49 pm: | |
Dantonio is a basket case, he seems ready to snap. He is making a big mistake being obsessed with Michigan. The game is over, Purdue is on saturday, he better get his focus or there will be no bowl game. MSU is 1-5 in the last 6 games, with a heartbreaking loss to UM. What makes you think they will be 7-5.
I can bet you UM is totally thinking of Wisc. |
Mayor_sekou
Member
Username: Mayor_sekou
Post Number: 1672
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 5:21 pm: | |
Because Purdue and Penn State are beatable teams and its not like Michigan State couldn't easily be 9-1 right now. So they do compete and if they compete well enough my pre-season predication will hold. |
Kenp
Member
Username: Kenp
Post Number: 869
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 5:25 pm: | |
I hope you do win 7, good luck. Which of the games would have been the loss if you were 9 - 1? |
Mayor_sekou
Member
Username: Mayor_sekou
Post Number: 1674
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 5:32 pm: | |
The Ohio State game. They were simply outclassed that game it was a blowout no where near as close as the final score suggests. That game makes me fear for Michigan playing the buckeyes this year so good luck to you guys there and watch out for Wisconsin they still have some bite to them. |
Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw
Post Number: 3936
Registered: 02-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 5:37 pm: | |
Exactly Kenp, who dwells on a game that's over and done like that, when two key games remain? This strange behavior will rub off on his players and they might just miss a bowl game.
Now I know that Dantonio ain't JL Smith, but it's funny that the school of the ND flag planting incident, and countless other recent shenanigans, should be calling out UM for an unoffensive, smart gesture at the end of that last game. Perhaps that hit Dantonio where it hurt, considering what he said earlier in the season.
Sekou, it's clear that they show up when their backs are against the wall in some of these games that end of being more competitive. I'll admit that. If Dantonio makes a rivalry of this, though, they'll never have a chance, because Big Blue will always come out swinging. Lloyd Carr would never bite on this BS, but I'm sure the UM underclassmen, with the guidance of Hart, will take Dantanio's quote under advisement for next season. |
Tkangas_23
Member
Username: Tkangas_23
Post Number: 27
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 5:44 pm: | |
Didn't MSU men's Basketball just lose to Division 2 GVSU???
So much for bragging rights there... |
Mayor_sekou
Member
Username: Mayor_sekou
Post Number: 1678
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 5:53 pm: | |
It was an exhibition game. Seriously Wolverines stick to football because basketball is a Spartan sport, no question.
Okay so now this over hyped yearly battle isn't even a rivalry. Some would call that Michigan arrogance at work Mackinaw but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. But I agree if Dantonio dwells on it too long instead of focusing on next week, yes it could prove problematic for a variety of reasons but this coach is good one so I don't believe that will be a problem.
But you know what I just read the whole article and I think Michigan better be careful this doesn't really turn MSU to the dark side of dominating Michigan. And I cant wait to big brother Buckeyes come to town and school little brother on the court.
(Message edited by Mayor_sekou on November 05, 2007) |
Dds
Member
Username: Dds
Post Number: 446
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 6:34 pm: | |
quote:Didn't MSU men's Basketball just lose to Division 2 GVSU???
Exhibition game. |
Tkangas_23
Member
Username: Tkangas_23
Post Number: 28
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 8:20 pm: | |
So they weren't trying to win? |
Brucek1958
Member
Username: Brucek1958
Post Number: 3
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 8:53 pm: | |
Dantonio is on record as saying he thought they had the game won. On Ch 7's late news broadcast that night, a reporter who was working on the Spartan sideline said that the players were definitely celebrating early. He mentioned how the players were telling each other to "remember this moment", etc, etc.. Rather than being upset with Mike Hart, they should be upset with themselves for thinking the game was over when they went up by 10. It was only three years ago the Spartans were up by 17 with about the same amount of time left in the game. We all know what happened then. Since that was only three years ago you would think that the Seniors on this years team would have been wise enough to know the game is not over till the clock reads. Perhaps they figured if the coach thinks they had the game won before it was over then, well, we've won. This is incredibly poor leadership by Dantonio. He should have been aware of what happened three years ago and told his players to not celebrate until the game was actually over. In my opinion, the way Dantonio managed this was a more significant reason for the loss than the defensive strategy they used at the end. When they started celebrating early, they lost their edge and I think it contributed heavily to the 3 and out after Michigan scored the first of those two touchdowns. It's not hard to imagine that instead of going out there with a killer instinct, the offense went out there with thoughts of the celebration after the game. In Dantonio and the players own way, they disrespected Michigan by acting and thinking the game was over. Dantonio and the players should be mad at themselves for being foolish in allowing this to happen. How many times this year have the Spartans failed to play a full 60 minutes and ended up losing games they should have won? When are Dantonio and the players going to get upset about this? Forget about what Mike Hart said. You want respect? - play a full 60 minutes. |
Hooha
Member
Username: Hooha
Post Number: 150
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 9:09 pm: | |
If MSU didn't care they shouldn't have left white chocolate out there.
Dantonio better have a clock counting down to this Saturday, because the Purdue game is now the biggest game of the year for MSU. Purdue is a mediocre team that feeds off of weak non-conference schedules. They can be had at home.
I don't give state much of a chance of taking down Penn State, especially if they go into the game on a 4 game losing streak including two heartbreakers. Psychology is so important when it comes to a team's performance. Considering the culture around State the last 4 years, why would you expect them to get up for PSU? |
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