  Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2548 Registered: 06-2006 |
I admit, I really don't know much about Cass Tech high school... But given the way people talk about it, I'm kinda shocked to learn their dropout rate is over 40%...that's pretty huge... http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20071030/S CHOOLS/710300376/1026&imw=Y | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 3312 Registered: 10-2003 |
As I pointed out on the other thread this was posted on, (and is explained at the bottom of the article) the Hopkins study does not take into account transfers. They call Ferndale High a dropout factory, yet it has a 91.27% graduation rate according to the Michigan Department of Education, which DOES take into account transfers. In a state where some cities have been losing population, wouldn't it be important to not count people moving away as dropouts? | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10617 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'm pretty surprised to hear that number as well. Does this study manage data the same as the other data that just counts freshamn starts against seniors graduating? If so it may be a case that the fleeing middle class may be a contributing factor to lower numbers. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4499 Registered: 10-2004 |
I somehow don't believe that so many transferred or moved in Ferndale. When I taught in Lincoln Park several years ago, the school district might mention that their "1-year" dropout rate might be 8% or so. However, the actual dropout rate (over 30% then) is some three or four times the "1-year" rate. Or in other words, poor-performing school districts play word games and obfuscate. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2549 Registered: 06-2006 |
Yeah, I always here people point to transfers when these studies come out, but it seems that in doing so they're just ignoring a very real problem... when your dropout rate is over 40%, I'm sorry, but transfers are not the problem...and even if tranfers did account for 40% of your dropouts, then that's a problem in itself... I went to a high school of about 2,200 people and can only think of 2 people that I knew who transfered to another school during the 4 years I was there...now, I'm sure the actual number of transfers was probably higher than 2, but either way, it was a drop in the bucket...very insignificant... (Message edited by thejesus on October 30, 2007) | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 3313 Registered: 10-2003 |
Perhaps, though Ferndale has had a lot of real estate activity over the past ten years. A lot of the older residents have been replaced with younger people. There are a lot of young children on my block alone. So I could see where the numbers might get skewed. | ||
Pennst8 Member Username: Pennst8 Post Number: 1 Registered: 08-2006 |
Unless times have changed that much since I graduated in '99, Cass loses a TON of freshman due to the lack of Academic performance. If I can recall correctly our freshman class coming in was some 1300 students, whereas our graduating class was only around 600-700 students. Trust me they have no problem putting you out and sending you back to your neighborhood HS if your grades, attendence or attitude aren't up to par. (Message edited by pennst8 on October 30, 2007) | ||
Eric_c Member Username: Eric_c Post Number: 1073 Registered: 11-2003 |
Cass has a tough curriculum. I'd imagine a good chunk could flunk out. What percent of graduates go on to college, though? | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 3314 Registered: 10-2003 |
It begs the question, what is the job of schools? To babysit kids who have poor discipline and make teaching and learning more difficult for the people who actually work hard to do well, while trying to make sure as many kids as possible graduate? This inevitebly leads to the kids who are there to learn not learning all they could, as so much time is spent catering to the lowest common denominators. I certainly speak from experience on this one, I had some classes and teachers that would have been fantastic, if their classes weren't constantly being disrupted by a few loud idiots. Maybe its time for schools to say bye bye to kids who refuse to be decent students. It's the job of the parents to discipline kids, and make sure they behave, not the school. The school is there to teach. Why allow a handful of kids to drag everybody else down? | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 932 Registered: 11-2003 |
Pennst8 has identified the main issue for Cass Tech. The school tries its best to maintain standards. This is a good thing. Cass Tech is not like the Ivy League where getting admitted can be the most rigorous part of the academic experience. | ||
That_gurl_kat Member Username: That_gurl_kat Post Number: 29 Registered: 10-2007 |
Good point Eric_c... maybe Cass has some no nonsense policies that force slackers to leave the school, hence the drop out numbers? I don't know. But I agree that the more important statistic is the number of kids that go on to college from Cass. I hope (pray?) that it is a high percentage! | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2030 Registered: 04-2006 |
I think it's pretty believable that 40% of the people who start as freshman at Cass do not graduate from Cass, but just because you don't graduate from a school doesn't mean you dropped out. I'm pretty sure upwards of 90% of the people who start out as freshmen at Cass graduate from high school. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2031 Registered: 04-2006 |
Pennst8 has identified the main issue for Cass Tech. The school tries its best to maintain standards. This is a good thing. Cass Tech is not like the Ivy League where getting admitted can be the most rigorous part of the academic experience. What Ivy League would that be? | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2551 Registered: 06-2006 |
"Cass has a tough curriculum. I'd imagine a good chunk could flunk out." The idea of having a tough curriculum isn't to flunk a large number of people out...its to prepare every student who comes through for what lies ahead...they should only be admitting students who have a high chance of completing the program perhaps its time for DPS to toughen up that test students have to take to get in there, because it's obviously not serving its purpose (Message edited by thejesus on October 30, 2007) | ||
Kevgoblu Member Username: Kevgoblu Post Number: 23 Registered: 02-2007 |
The idea of having a tough curriculum isn't to flunk a large number of people out...its too prepare every student who comes through for what lies ahead...they should only be admitting students who have a high chance of completing the program Thejesus - if thats how you feel, then you're probably disapointed in some of our colleges like U-M or MSU. They definately don't have a 90+% graduation rate. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2552 Registered: 06-2006 |
^while it's more critical for high schools to ensure that all their students graduate, I agree that colleges should not be admitting under qualified people either... It doesn't do them any good... | ||
Kevgoblu Member Username: Kevgoblu Post Number: 24 Registered: 02-2007 |
JL - Bravo! schools are absolutely not supposed to be free babysitting service, but that seems to be what they're turning into. I've long advocated a revision to Bush's "No child left behind" policy. Maybe someone could change it to "There will be children left behind... the only question is will your's be one of them?" | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2032 Registered: 04-2006 |
I think it's safe to file this study under propaganda, so far as Cass is concerned. Of all of the high schools in Detroit, it's definitely among the least of the district's worries. Cass has a very transient freshmen and sophomore student population, which makes it's results sensitive to the methods of this study. | ||
Pennst8 Member Username: Pennst8 Post Number: 2 Registered: 08-2006 |
The test is fine, most kids from my middle school didn't even make it pass the test to even get a spitting chance at the 3 schools of choice. I really don't think a test on what you should know, has the ability to weed out what you can absorb and how well you can perform from an academics perspective. I for one, slipped up 2 quarters of my freshman year because quite frankly I thought I could get away with doing little to nothing and still pull off a 4.0. CT challenges their students and ensures they are ready for college, (over 90% of my graduating class was accepted to a 4 year college) something a lot of schools don't prep for. I don't know how many kids during my freshman year of college cringed at the amount of necessary coursework.....whereas I was used to it. | ||
Pennst8 Member Username: Pennst8 Post Number: 3 Registered: 08-2006 |
The test is fine, most kids from my middle school didn't even make it pass the test to even get a spitting chance at the 3 schools of choice. I really don't think a test on what you should know, has the ability to weed out what you can absorb and how well you can perform from an academics perspective. I for one, slipped up 2 quarters of my freshman year because quite frankly I thought I could get away with doing little to nothing and still pull off a 4.0. CT challenges their students and ensures they are ready for college, (over 90% of my graduating class was accepted to a 4 year college) something a lot of schools don't prep for. I don't know how many kids during my freshman year of college cringed at the amount of necessary coursework.....whereas I was used to it. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2554 Registered: 06-2006 |
"Cass has a tough curriculum. I'd imagine a good chunk could flunk out." I bet Cranbrook has a far tougher curriculum, but I highly doubt their dropout rate is anything close to 40% It goes back to what I'm saying about admitting students who are capable of completing the program... The test that screens applicants is obviously not serving its purpose... As Pennst8 pointed out, perhaps it doesn't need to be made harder, but it definitely needs to be revamped. In a city of 900,000 people, I find it hard to believe that they can't find enough kids who are capable of actually graduating to fill one high school. (Message edited by thejesus on October 30, 2007) | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 3013 Registered: 06-2004 |
FWIW, Michigan ranks between NY and CA in this study. CA slightly better than MI, NY slightly worse. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 2034 Registered: 04-2006 |
In a city of 900,000 people, I find it hard to believe that they can't find enough kids who are capable of actually graduating to fill one high school. Well, that isn't the problem. The school doesn't admit people who are incapable of graduating. The school does have to deal with a lot of other issues (albeit, on a smaller scale than other inner-city high schools) that schools like Cranbrook typically don't have to deal with at all. | ||
Pennst8 Member Username: Pennst8 Post Number: 4 Registered: 08-2006 |
Cranbrook is an entirely different animal. I'd like to see Cass compared to Ren and MLK to paint a more accurate picture, and even then I don't think the entering student body is that large. | ||
Kgrimmwsu Member Username: Kgrimmwsu Post Number: 100 Registered: 06-2004 |
Pinckney High School? Wow things have changed for the worse since 2003... | ||
Chandyside Member Username: Chandyside Post Number: 8 Registered: 08-2005 |
REceived this from the Ferndale Director of Pupil Services & Community Relations this morning via e-mail in relation to this story. "According to No Child Left Behind (NCLB) and State of Michigan reporting, the following statistics represent Ferndale High School's graduation rate. The Ferndale High School retention rate for 2005-2006 was 97.72%. The retention rate is defined by the number of ninth graders who graduate from high school within four years, adjusting for the students who move in and out of the district, and to alternative programs. The No Child Left Behind and Michigan Department of Education standards for measuring high school graduation and drop out rates for Ferndale High School are as follows for 2005-2006: Graduation Rate: 91.27% Dropout Rate: 2.28% The dropout rate is defined by the percentage of students who leave school in any one year, adjusting to the students who move in and out of the district, and to alternative programs. The Class of 2007 included 230 graduates, of whom 83% are pursuing college, 4% trade/technical school, and 4% armed services. They earned $1.6-million in scholarships, and earned admission to MIT, Carnegie Mellon, Albion, University of Michigan, Indiana University, Michigan State University, Wayne State University, Loyola, and many others." | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10624 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: I think that is fairly well understood and acknowledged. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 568 Registered: 08-2007 |
This research study, like most others, has an agenda. If you look at the data from the researchers at Johns Hopkins U, you'll see they're trying to correlate attrition with poverty. However, according to Cornell: In a comprehensive study finds that an average increase in stricter high school graduation requirements results in a 3 to 7 percent jump in the dropout rate. The Cornell University and University of Michigan economists who conducted the study say this translates to between 26,000 and 65,000 more high school dropouts a year nationwide. Doesn't this contradict the "babysitting" theory? Doesn't this make you stop and consider research bias? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 4523 Registered: 03-2006 |
The root cause of this problem is the same as many others that plague the area. Too many dumb people that probably are high school dropouts themselves having kids they are incapable of raising. They are not prepared financially, mentally or emotionally to be parents but they do it anyway and their kids end up in the schools. As the parents have no ability to help the child with their schoolwork and are also incapable of being a positive role model, the child fails, perhaps to repeat the mistakes of his parents and ends up somewhere in "the system." Welfare, Prison, take your pick. You could pump millions of additional dollars into the school system and it won't change much. If the kids don't want to learn they won't. We need to face this grim reality and train these kids in a trade, of course even then they need to be able to read and do basic math. At least they wouldn't be disrupting the classes who have kids that want to learn. The problem here is that these kids have already been left behind by their own families or lack thereof. No government run school or program can overcome that. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 569 Registered: 08-2007 |
Too many dumb people that probably are high school dropouts themselves having kids they are incapable of raising. Right then, social engineering as an answer...sounds rather fascist. | ||
Eric_c Member Username: Eric_c Post Number: 1075 Registered: 11-2003 |
Teach them a trade? What, so they can move to China to find employment?! You're absolutely correct, though. Nobody wants to talk about it, but trashy, scuzzy people have trashy, scuzzy kids. Period. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 5601 Registered: 08-2004 |
PG... I hate to burst your bubble... my parents came to the USA in the 1950's from Germany. My late father only had a 6th grade education and my mother only had a 9th grade education. And guess what! They raised 3 kids who each went on to get a bachelors and a masters degree... There's way more to it than the education of the parents... | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 4525 Registered: 03-2006 |
Gistok - Then your parents are not an example of my point. My parents had humble backgrounds too. There is more to it than education and I mentioned those factors too. People on this forum really go out of there way to be politically correct - sheesh! | ||
The_ed Member Username: The_ed Post Number: 472 Registered: 10-2007 |
"As yesterday's positive report card shows, childrens do learn when standards are high and results are measured." --George W. Bush, on the No Child Left Behind Act, Washington, D.C., Sept. 26, 2007 (spoken like a true chimp...i mean champ.) | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 892 Registered: 12-2006 |
Graduation rates only have any meaning at all if you accept the notion that the purpose of a high school is to give a diploma to everyone who walks in. I disagree emphatically with that notion. The purpose of a high school is to provide a high-school-level education, and to inform the public as to which young people have successfully received such an education by granting diplomas to them. A great many students fail to receive a high-school-level education at all; I know because I have to re-teach high school subjects to them in college, at great expense. Yet, because their schools are focused on idiotic metrics like "graduation rates", they give diplomas to such students. I would much rather see the high schools do their job: if somebody is not successful at their ninth grade subjects, retain them in ninth grade until they do succeed at it or give up. Same for tenth, eleventh and twelfth. We are spending, as a society, billions and billions of dollars to teach remedial high school courses at colleges and universities. If a school has a low graduation rate, it might mean their teaching is bad but their standards are high, or it might mean that the parents aren't sufficiently motivated to make sure their children succeed, or it might mean any number of other things. But that statistical measure, by its very existence, causes substantial harm. | ||
Jenniferl Member Username: Jenniferl Post Number: 405 Registered: 03-2004 |
To add to what Professorscott wrote, a lot of kids have no business being in high school at all. If you're 14 years old and you read at a second grade level, there is no way you're going to pass ninth grade, much less earn a high school diploma, unless you receive some serious help. High schools should be for the students who are more or less prepared to do high school level work. A kid who is at about a 6th grade level academically can probably squeak by, but not a kid who is functionally illiterate. I think we need to drastically alter the way our schools are structured, so that there's a place for kids to go if they're unable to keep up with the rest of their class. Most of these kids don't have low enough IQs to qualify for special ed, but (let's face it) they're not smart enough to work at grade level. They need some sort of program that is suited to their ability level and, in a lot of cases, that can also address the poverty-related issues that are interfering with their school performance. Most importantly, the kids who are falling between the cracks need to be identified as early as possible, preferably during the early elementary school years. If you've worked in a kindergarten or first-grade class (as I have), you can tell right away which kids are ready to learn reading, writing, and basic math and which kids won't be able to keep up because they still talk like babies, have little self-control, and can't tell the difference between a circle and a triangle. Teachers like to say that these kinds of kids will eventually mature and catch up to their peers, but what really happens is that the kids remain behind year after year and the teachers just pass them along to the next grade. | ||
English Member Username: English Post Number: 599 Registered: 10-2003 |
Some of the talk on this forum is frightening at times. Sure, mass sterilizations are the best way to take care of the education problem -- it worked so well where it's been tried before! (Not.) The solution to the education problem is a different kind of society, where the school system is aligned with the world of work. Nothing more, nothing less. The current education system reached its zenith when the Boomers were schoolaged kids. It was fine for mid-20th century jobs, social expectations, and citizenship. It was barely functional when I was coming through 15-25 years ago. It is on life support now. Even the "stellar" suburban private and top public schools woefully underperform many of their counterparts in developed nations, when income is adjusted for. Everyone from Thomas Friedman to Bill Gates to blue-ribbon commissions on education populated by noneducators has pointed this out. I fully expect for 21st century education to be as different from what schools were like in the 20th century as 20th century schools differed from 19th century one-room schoolhouses. The problem is that we're at the dawn of the century and our view is myopic. Who could have predicted the midcentury high school graduation rate in 1907? Gloom and doom are easy. Hope and optimism are difficult, and must be earned, but the rewards are priceless. Other generations with more character and moral fiber knew this... why don't we? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4501 Registered: 10-2004 |
Detroit and the rest of the 35 largest school districts produce the vast majority of school dropouts, according to stats. It's obviously a subcultural and urban problem. When I taught the fifth grade, there was a fourth grade kid (I also taught math to the 4th grade in addition to the 5th grade subjects), who attended less than five percent of the time--probably around 3%. He already was a year or two behind. He is one of what are called intellectual dropouts but who will eventually be a total dropout. Intellectual dropouts start becoming numerous by the fifth grade, when they merely come to school and may even have good attendance. However, they do little to nothing for years, if they don't drop out, and unfortunately many of them graduate and even believe that they are educated... | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4502 Registered: 10-2004 |
The highest raw scores for the SAT were in 1962. Those high school seniors then were about two years too old to be Baby Boomers. Actually, the Boomers have little to brag about because they were the oldest of the undereducated in American society. Almost the entire 19 years of the Boomer generation were characterized by diminished academic expectations. And it even got worse when the Boomers themselves had kids in school... They were lousy students and quite probably lousy parents. The blame has to be pinned somewhere. The Boomers are the prime suspects. | ||
Hpgrmln Member Username: Hpgrmln Post Number: 250 Registered: 06-2007 |
Most of the districts listed are lower-income, where the adults don't have a stellar education themselves.These are also in areas where teen pregnancy is higher,which I believe plays a very large part. If you were to check statistics on girls having babies before age 18, I strongly suspect the numbers are higher in the same school districts as these "dropout factories" | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 572 Registered: 08-2007 |
If you're 14 years old and you read at a second grade level, there is no way you're going to pass ninth grade... Yes, there is a way; it's called social promotion. Truth is that if these students were tested and given help by 2nd grade, they wouldn't end up functionally illiterate. It's very hard to help kids with reading issues if they're promoted and offered no help. If they reach 5th or 6th grade, it's really difficult for them to catch up. | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 558 Registered: 07-2007 |
Turn On Tune In Drop Out The cycle continues | ||
Aoife Member Username: Aoife Post Number: 32 Registered: 04-2007 |
I agree, Hpgrmin- teen pregnancy might play a larger part than most people think. The school I went to in Grand Rapids made that list, and we had a huge amount of teen pregnancies (and this is 15 years ago, when it was still kind of taboo.) I can't remember one girl who came back after she had her baby- they just disappeared. I knew a few of those girls well, and their family situations were all similar- they had moms who had never finished school because they either had to take care of younger siblings or had children of their own. Education wasn't high on the priority list because they expected very little from life. That sounds more pithy than intended, but really- the girls just didn't care, as long as they landed a guy who would stay with them and a roof over their head, they were satisfied. | ||
Detourdetroit Member Username: Detourdetroit Post Number: 347 Registered: 10-2003 |
That 40% figure is interesting. I remember being a frosh at Cass where we had a class of about 1,000. If my memory serves, our graduating class had about 600+. Cass was a great experience for me. Some of my teachers were better at Cass than the Ivy I went to... | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 575 Registered: 08-2007 |
How is 40% interesting? Attrition involves more variables than what this dubious report includes. |
