Discuss Detroit » Archives - July 2007 » Cleveland and Detroit « Previous Next »
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Detroitbill
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Username: Detroitbill

Post Number: 362
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 12:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sounds like Cleveland and Detroit have things in common, Their newspaper this week reacted to their Baseball World Series Semi Final loss as follows:
"In a city where it's easy to get down about our situation, where high crime rates, high foreclosures, poverty and urban decay dominate the headlines, our sports teams give us an outlet to promote pride in our city. At no other time do you see so many people cheering about Cleveland as when one of our sports teams is successful and is in the limelight of the national stage"
We have things in common for sure
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Fareastsider
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Username: Fareastsider

Post Number: 659
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 2:15 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cleveland he was from Detroit.....
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Smogboy
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Post Number: 6216
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 2:32 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not to mention the last time the Tribe won the World Series was 1948; we've won it a few times since then. Our Pistons have won the NBA Championships a few times (enough to keep changing the street address up there in Auburn Hills) whereas the Cavaliers haven't yet. And even as much as the Lions fans kvetch about not winning- the Browns haven't sniffed a championship since 1952!

And NHL hockey? The Barons compared to the Red Wings?
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 3581
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Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 9:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Browns won the NFL Championship in 1964. Of course, that bastard Art Modell had sent Paul Brown packing by then.
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Rb336
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Username: Rb336

Post Number: 3201
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 11:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Has anyone seen a study of the economic impact of the Rock and Roll Hall of People Jan Wenner likes?
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Smogboy
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Username: Smogboy

Post Number: 6222
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, October 29, 2007 - 11:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Whoops, my bad Danindc. The Browns DID win it that year. And you do bring up one heinous fact about what a rotten owner Modell was. I still remember the uproar when he moved the team to become the Ravens.
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Wash_man
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Username: Wash_man

Post Number: 501
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 12:21 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just saw part of a PBS show about Cleveland. Very interesting. I suggest watching it since everything discussed applies to Detroit. I plan to watch it in its entirety tomorrow. Just replace "Cleveland" with "Detroit" and this documentary could have been made here.

http://www.pbs.org/modules/tvs chedules/includes/programinfop opup.html?title_id=62141&displ ay_feed=10884&display_format=l ist_airdates&feeds=2666,10884, 14782,18862&station=WTVS&zipco de=48393-2247&transport=&provi der=&channelsuppress=f&supersi te=stations&program_title=Maki ng%20Sense%20of%20Place---Clev eland:%20Confronting%20Decline %20in%20an%20American%20City
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 1940
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 11:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Honestly, is Cleveland still in decline, or has it turned the corner? It had often seemed to me that there are many similarities between Detroit and Cleveland, but I was always under the impression that they might be a decade ahead or so on the task of attempting to turn the corner.
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Mackcreative
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Username: Mackcreative

Post Number: 119
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 12:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cleveland really seemed on the upswing 5-10 years ago, the Flats, Tower City, downtown were really looking good and ritzy, it's not bad now but not quite as good as it was.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 3685
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Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 2:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Cleveland really seemed on the upswing 5-10 years ago, the Flats, Tower City, downtown were really looking good and ritzy, it's not bad now but not quite as good as it was.



Cleveland put a lot of "lipstick on the pig solutions" into place in the 1990s. The factors that caused Cleveland's decline, however, are still very much in effect. The new "exciting" thing is a giant strip mall (complete with Wal Mart and Home Depot) just outside of downtown.

Hooray.

There is some hope. A couple big name local developers have taken interest in downtown. Bob Stark, who has had much success developing in the suburbs, and with his Crocker Park development in Westlake, is planning a multibillion redevelopment in the Warehouse District. The idea is to get rid of the surface parking lots, and build mixed-use residential, office, and retail, to the connect the neighborhood better to Public Square. Scott Wolstein has purchased many properties on the East Bank of the Flats, and plans something similar.

These guys aren't dumb--they know that boosting the residential population and creating an attractive urban environment can only help. Forest City Enterprises, on the other hand, is trying to goad the city and county into publicly subsidizing a new convention center behind its Terminal Tower complex.

Unfortunately for Detroit, it helps that downtown Cleveland has about 140,000 daytime employees (about double Detroit's CBD employment). I think there is a market, though, based on the success seen so far in the Tremont and Ohio City neighborhoods just west of downtown. I wouldn't expect that the parameters in Detroit are entirely different.
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Dustin89
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Username: Dustin89

Post Number: 149
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 2:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I went several years back on a weekend to visit the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, and stayed downtown...I liked it, and the downtown seemed nice; I also went to a record store and farmer's market outside of downtown, and went through some decayed areas very reminiscent of Detroit. I tend to think of Cleveland & Detroit as very similar cities; both have pretty bad reputations, but a ton of positive aspects.
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Mike
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Username: Mike

Post Number: 1059
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 2:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i think one of the biggest differences is that metro-Cleveland does hate Cleveland the way Metro-Detroit hates Detroit
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Jrvass
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Username: Jrvass

Post Number: 288
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 6:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Huh?
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Downtownguy
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Username: Downtownguy

Post Number: 87
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 7:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Think Mike meant to say "doesn't hate..."
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 417
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 7:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Think Mike meant to say 'doesn't hate...'"

Or did he????

Anyway, no one in Metro Detroit hates Detroit. They just hate the condition it's in. Detroit has way too much to offer than many cities in America. I do wish however that SE Michigan would work with it's supposed center to help us out economically and socially. Unfortunately, you have the City Government and you have Mr. I'll handle my land, you'll handle yours in Oakland County. Then you have their followers.
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Downtownguy
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Username: Downtownguy

Post Number: 88
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Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 7:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Anyway, no one in Metro Detroit hates Detroit."

^^ What rock did you just crawl out from under?
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Detroitrise
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Username: Detroitrise

Post Number: 418
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 7:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, the question that should be asked is where do you buy your reading glasses/contacts and for how much?
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 1951
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2007 - 10:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One does often hear that metro Detroiters are tougher on the CoD than are people from outside of the area.
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Doctors
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Username: Doctors

Post Number: 731
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Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 12:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't forget about the main thing (and I hate to say it) that puts Cleveland in the league of the "great cities" of the world and leaves Detroit looking like so much of a midwestern town.

That thing is Cleveland's mass transit system. Heavy rail, and light rail. Built in a way that Detroit could easily emulate. But for obvious reasons, and some less than obvious reasons, Detroit cannot rise to the level of Cleveland?
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Lefty2
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Username: Lefty2

Post Number: 589
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2007 - 1:12 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i think that i think that i like Detroit but I think that it like could be better you know but it's like i hate myself so i don't know what i really think
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Cabasse
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Username: Cabasse

Post Number: 65
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 12:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ack.

(Message edited by cabasse on November 05, 2007)
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Cabasse
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Username: Cabasse

Post Number: 66
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 12:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

193,000 > 140,000. (gotta count midtown/new center as well, they are traditionally part of the cbd)

...whew.
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Mike
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Username: Mike

Post Number: 1061
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Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 2:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i did mean doesnt hate.

the cleveland burbs dont hate Cleveland. the burbs of cleveland support their central city, where in our metro region, barely anyone from the burbs supports the central city. if anything, they steal from the central city, hoping that they can recreate it in their burb.

the hatred runs so strong that if you were to take a vote and asked people if we should relocate the Fox, DIA, CoPa, Opera House, Hitsville, etc, they would choose yes and waste millions of dollars to move it next to the zoo in Royal Oak.

People in this region think that our central city, or were its all happening is in someplace in the burbs.
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Detroitbill
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Username: Detroitbill

Post Number: 372
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 8:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I like Cleveland, I find its downtown quite appealing however it does rival Detroit in many ways. I agree the burbs of Cleveland dont seem to hold the same attitude as in Detroit but I do find thats changing in Detroit as things improve.
You can kinda understand both sides in this one.
I go to Cleveland often for work , its got some really great near city neighborhoods (Edgewater, Lakewood) but then again so does Detroit..right in the city ( Lafayette Park, Corktown, Indian Village, MidTown.) Overall if Detroit continues to clean up its act I think we easily have as much to do as Cleveland, we seem to be more entertainment focused with so many festivals, events etc with the exception of retail, Cleveland has much more Downtown than we do. Afterall, Detroit was built at its heyday for 2million people and Cleveland was built for 900,000. You can notice that. Listening to their news isnt all that much different than here, except I do think we have better sports facilities now overall with Ford Field and the other things like the new DIA and having Canada so close. I think we are a bit more of an interesting place overall due to our strategic geographic location. But, I do think Cleveland is quite fine. They improved their downtown very well and long before we have ( or are)
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Sturge
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Username: Sturge

Post Number: 151
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 12:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I grew up near Cleveland. The biggest difference I noticed moving here is hockey. It's just not as big of a deal in Cleveland as opposed to here.
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Wfw
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Username: Wfw

Post Number: 302
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Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 10:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

According to the BBC, Cleveland is in pretty rough shape due to the sub-prime crash.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/bus iness/7070935.stm
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Miketoronto
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Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 730
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 11:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Clevaland's central city while it has troubles I think is in more better economic shape then Detroit.

Clevaland's central city is still much more of a major employment destination for the region then Detroit is to its region. Central Cleveland has downtown, the Euclid corridor, Cleveland Clinic area, and University Circle, which bring a lot of people into the central city each day. Ontop of that, Clevaland has more intact inner city neighbourhoods that you can live in and get your basic services, etc.

So I think that would be the main differences, along with the mass transit that ties Cleveland together better.
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Tomoh
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Username: Tomoh

Post Number: 312
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Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 12:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The two cities are similar in a lot of obvious ways but Detroit is a lot bigger. Cleveland has a lot less black as well as a brown people, a higher proportion of white people in the city. Both cities are a fraction of the size of their metro populations but since Detroit is so much bigger it means there are millions more people for whom the central city is much farther away. I think those two factors contribute to why suburban Clevelanders don't hate Cleveland as much. Five years ago the Flats in Cleveland was still somewhat going on but unfortunately it has gone the way of RiverTown. But that gave the newer Warehouse District a chance and that's going pretty well showing that there is still a market for developments in central Cleveland. As for the trains in Cleveland they are useful for getting downtown from the airport or if you live in Shaker Heights but otherwise most of the rest of the region is left driving cars and I'm not sure you should call it a world-class city because of those two lines. But it's a level Detroit should start at, a Woodward line and a Livingston County/Ann Arbor/airport line.
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Southofeight
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Username: Southofeight

Post Number: 118
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Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 1:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote: "barely anyone from the burbs supports the central city."

Yeah, nobody in the suburbs cares.
Such a stupid, sweeping generalization. Are you for real?
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401don
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Username: 401don

Post Number: 64
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Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 2:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I really like Detroit's position on a large river as opposed to Cleveland which just kind of drifts down to the lake. The riverfront gives the city definition and great views. In our climate you can actually enjoy the riverfront in November, April, etc. Ever try walking along the lakefront with the winds whipping at your face?
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Treelock
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Username: Treelock

Post Number: 237
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Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 5:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There was a recent episode of "No Reservations" where Anthony Bourdain visited Cleveland in mid-winter and hung out with some guys who were surfing on Lake Erie right next to a giant pipe that disgorges untreated sewage. Yum. He also visited an old Twinkie factory that still had corn syrup stuck in the pipes. But yes, the city's history of industrial prosperity followed by decades of decline and abandonment parallels that of Detroit, which parallels that of St. Louis, which parallels that of Pittsburgh...
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Jjaba
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Post Number: 5616
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Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 7:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tomoh, Ann Arbor is NOT a suburb.

In the shuttle vans of Great Lakes Brewing Co., just across the Lorian Bridge from the ballpark, don't wear Tigers gear. Cleveland fans are idiots. They show no class. The unchecked harrassment is brutal.

jjaba, from an experience in Cleveland, aptly named the Mistake on the Lake.
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Royce
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Post Number: 2423
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Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 9:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I visited Cleveland two weeks ago, getting in on a Thursday night. My wife and I stayed at the Hyatt in the old Arcade Building on Superior Avenue. Cleveland's downtown has a lot of modern buildings and it public areas like Public Square and a few grassy malls remind me of Grant Park and the Lakefront in Chicago. Cleveland loves artwork and sculptures and even has a Soldiers and Sailors monument that you can walk in.

The three Cleveland sports stadiums are within walking distance of each other. Cleveland Browns Stadium appeared to me to be the shortest professional football stadium I have ever seen, but that's probably because it's more round as opposed to being rectangler. You can see the goal posts from the street at one corner of the stadium, which reminds me of Comerica Park at John R and Montcalm.

The most striking negative about downtown Cleveland is that it is very desolate. I walked out of the front door of the hotel on Thursday around eleven and I was afraid to venture down the block. Even when my wife and I came back from Friday dinner from the House of Blues, which was a block behind our hotel, it was still devoid of people. Maybe it's different during the summer months. However, it appears that many of the hotels are in the financial district/Public Square area, so that in the evening there are very few people mulling around.

It was also very dead on Saturday afternoon when my wife and I walked over to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. We encountered a number of homeless people and saw four of them sleeping on the steam grates just one block from our hotel on Superior Avenue, which is Cleveland's Woodward Avenue, at least in downtown Cleveland.

The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame was nice and visited by many, but most must have drove and parked. There weren't a lot of them walking in our direction when we left.

On the way back to the hotel we stopped in the Galleria. It was eerily empty. Most of the shops were art or jewelry stores that were reminiscent of the shops in Greektown's Trapper's Alley when it first opened. Anyway, we were glad to get out of there. On the trip back, we did see a loft/condo develoment going up on the eastern corner of the Galleria. Maybe the residents from there will bring some life to it in the future.

Later that even we went to dinner in the Warehouse district. There were seven to ten restaurants in the area, but they weren't all on the same block so it different have the feel of Greektown. I thought to myself that it would have been nice if some of the hotels were in this area.

Later we travelled to the west side and ended up in Lakewood which was nice, given the fact that Superior Avenue became Detroit Ave and it was also quite desolate getting to Lakewood. On Sunday we visited the Flats. Not much happening there. However, there were a few lofts/apartments. One was huge(think Argonaut Building).

I did get a chance to drive on the east side of Cleveland. I saw Case Western Reserve University and the University Circle. There was a below groung parkway there that was a lot like Hines Drive. That part of Cleveland was nice. Getting there while driving along Superior Avenue was rough, however. It reminded me a lot of Mack Avenue between Gratiot and Conner, but at least on Mack you have a party store every few blocks. There wasn't much of anything along this stretch of Superior. I saw a lot of boarded up houses, but not a lot of vacant fields. The area near Superior and 108th was called Glenville. They had a team in the state football playoffs. Very depressing tour. Like I said, even in the most desolate parts of Detroit, you can find a party store or gas station, but not in Glenville.

I also travelled to a very hilly area of Cleveland which at some point was called East Cleveland and then Cleveland Heights(CH). CH reminded me of Rosedale Park, just with smaller homes. At one point there was this hugh strip mall with a movie theatre behind a Wal-mart.

At any rate, Cleveland is probably the one city that I have been to in the U.S. that closely resembles Detroit, especially its housing stock. The one thing that bothers me about Cleveland's waterfront is the airport. With the desire of people to live along water, I would think that Cleveland would have developed this area with high rises like in Chicago. However, there was only one lakefront loft building along the eastern lakefront. It was near 55th Street. After that I saw only industrial which looked a lot like the Great Lakes Steel area here.

BTW, do cities along lakes purposely set there major buildings blocks away from the lakefront because of fears of flooding? There are large areas of Chicago where there is nothing but parkland as well as an airport like there is in Cleveland. What's the story?
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Spiritofdetroit
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Username: Spiritofdetroit

Post Number: 725
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 9:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In Chicago after the big fire, they took all of the rubble, and put it into the lake, creating a very large landfill. The landfill was then developed into parkland, and is, by law, required to stay open space for the citizens of chicago... Area includes Grant Park and Millenium park
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Jjaba
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Username: Jjaba

Post Number: 5617
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 9:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chicago Meigs Field was closed and torn up.

Thanks Royce for the lovely report. You forgot to view League Park, at E. 67th and Lexington. This is where Babe Ruth faced Cy Young, etc. It is a certified Lowell Boileau ruins, although in Cleveland.

Of note, Case Technical College and Western Reserve University merged into Case-Western Reserve. The Western Reserve refers to Connecticut pioneers who bought land and moved to Ohio. They drove Pontiac GTOs, "Going to Ohio."

jjaba, joking on the Westside.
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 1490
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 9:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chicago purposely set it's lakefront aside as public land. Back in 1839, the land now known as Grant Park was set aside as "a common to remain forever open, clear and free of any buildings, or other obstruction whatever." Eventually, in the 1900s, this idea spread to the entire lakefront with Daniel Burnham's 1909 Plan of Chicago. So in Chicago, this was intentional. I don't know about Cleveland.
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Masterblaster
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Post Number: 101
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Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 10:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mr. Royce,
I read that, a century ago, Chicago set aside its lakefront as parkland to be enjoyed by the public. That why the city has 30 beaches!

Detroit could learn from Chicago, designating as much of the riverfront as possible to be public space to be enjoyed by many, than to allow it to be closed off by exclusive residential developments like Greyhaven and Morgan Creek Estates.

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