 
Diehard
Member
Username: Diehard
Post Number: 173
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 1:03 pm: |    |
How to deal with panhandlers? Here's what my family and I do: Donate to the Salvation Army, Capuchin Soup Kitchen, Mother Waddles, etc. Give the guy with the sign at the freeway on-ramp an apple and the guy in Greektown my doggie bag. But we absolutely do not give out cash to beggars, and we let them know that. The ones who are truly needy know where the shelters and soup kitchens are. If they've been kicked out for doing drugs, or if they're just straight-up scammers, then I can't help them.
My sister, who worked for a homeless outreach program (in another city) for a few years, agrees this is the best approach.
I agree they've crossed the line when they enter a private business and bother the customers. Nobody should put up with that. |
Detroit_stylin
Member
Username: Detroit_stylin
Post Number: 5265
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 1:04 pm: | |
DetX....
Stats? |
Nainrouge
Member
Username: Nainrouge
Post Number: 282
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 1:44 pm: | |
Diehard,
That is fine. It sounds like you treat them with respect. Good for you. No one says you have to give money. Just don't treat them like they weren't human.
I also think that that private companies should not be required to let them in if they don't want to (they can be respectful too in how they ask them to leave, though). What bothers me on this site is some of the stupid comments like "pack them up and send them to the shelters","kick their stinky asses out", "I don't want to see homeless people when I come to the city", "Detroit has the worst homeless problem in the country" and the like. These are inaccurate or show a lack of compassion and/or understanding of the real situation.
I do think that individuals should treat anyone with basic respect. Hell, I am even nice to CONSERVATIVES :-). You don't have to give them money if you don't want (the homeless, I mean). You should, how ever, look them in the eye, talk to them, and be polite - as long as they are being polite.
How about you put a quarter in the slot machine for them. If you win, you give them half your winnings. If not, they agree to leave you alone? Maybe your good karma will help you get the jackpot? |
Tkshreve
Member
Username: Tkshreve
Post Number: 220
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 1:45 pm: | |
The casinos GIVE $450,000 to the CoD everyday they are in business. This is common knowledge.
1- it is in the best interest of the casinos to quash any panhandling on or near their premises.
2- it is in the best interest of the CoD that the casinos quash any panhandling on or near the premises.
3- What is your city doing with that money? Are they helping the homeless population in an ever-increasing fashion???? My guess is no. In fact, the city has a sizeable debt it needs to pay roughly in tune with $8,000,000. How many homeless people would that feed and/or shelter? For those who think that direct personal donations are the difference maker for homeless/addicts, sorry you are wrong. Please write your goverment officials you elected and ask them what they are doing for the plighted population and how their funds are disbursed.
4- If the casinos become a known hangout of panhandlers, I can guarantee that it will deter visitors on many levels. Detroit does not want this. |
Diehard
Member
Username: Diehard
Post Number: 174
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 2:40 pm: | |
Thanks NainRouge. Glad there's a consensus on something! Your idea of splitting a jackpot sounds very philanthropic in theory, but realistically isn't smart. There's a very good chance that money will go straight to the liquor store - or worse, will make that guy a target for other, more aggressive street types who know he's got money and isn't going anywhere. Again, I think our policy of not giving out cash is appropriate.
I did hire a "will work for food" guy once to wash windows when I was cleaning up an apartment. It worked out OK, except he drank all the beer in the fridge. I guess that counts as food? Oh well. |
Nainrouge
Member
Username: Nainrouge
Post Number: 283
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 8:55 pm: | |
You ain't gonna win anyway. Might as well give it to the homeless as throw it away on the slots. How do you KNOW that everybody that you give money to is going to spend it on alcohol? Chances are that you are right - I don't know that I wouldn't drink if I was in that situation - but maybe they really do need the money for bus fair? Who are you (or me) to judge?
I have told this story before, but once I was waiting at the light on Woodward and this guy ran up to the car in front of me and started pounding on the windows. They ignored him so then he came up to my car. He told me that he was a trucker from Canada and that his truck had broken down. He didn't have any US money and so he asked me to give him $2 for the bus and the telephone. Said he was going to loose his job if I didn't help him. Yeah, right. So I gave him $2 as the light changed. He thanked me and dropped something in my car as he ran off. At the next light, I looked for what he had dropped and it was a $2 Canadian coin. He had been telling the truth the whole time and NO ONE WOULD HELP HIM. This is obviously a unique situation, but it does show that you cannot judge people's intentions 100%, and if you can't, who are you to judge? Anyway, like I said, keep your money if you want or drink it yourself or give it to the casino owner. If I choose to part with mine occasionally, that is my personal decision. I feel that giving a guy a buck gives him a little bit of power - the power to drink it or the power to do something else with it - who knows, maybe something positive? Anyway, it doesn't hurt me to lose a buck. |
Ravine
Member
Username: Ravine
Post Number: 1499
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 9:05 pm: | |
Actually, Nainrouge, the guy knocking on the windows really was a loser trying to hustle up money for booze. The Canadian coin was given to him, earlier, by a driver who was trying to get rid of him, and it. In fact, that's how he got the idea for the bullshit lie he told you before accepting your generous help and discarding the coin into your car.
No, I'm just kidding... I think. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4344
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 9:08 pm: | |
Right, who is anyone to judge? Maybe they are telling the truth and maybe they intend to rob you. Given the crime rate in the city, most people tend to err on the safe side. You want to engage every homeless person you see? Go ahead. Others choose not to, and you are in no position to judge them. |
Nainrouge
Member
Username: Nainrouge
Post Number: 284
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 9:14 pm: | |
I have worked in the city for years and I do speak to homeless people when I meet them. I have never been a victim of crime. Maybe because I don't piss them off? If you choose to call yourself a gentleman, maybe you should act like one? |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4346
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 9:20 pm: | |
Ah, the obligatory blame the victim bit. I knew that would show up on this thread eventually. So not only should we allow homeless people to accost visitors to the city on the streets we need to be careful not to "piss them off." |
Ravine
Member
Username: Ravine
Post Number: 1500
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 9:40 pm: | |
Anyone who charges up on me and badgers me for a handout has automatically, and completely, violated any conventionally shared concept of manners. Any response short of physical attack or violation of the person's rights is considered Acceptable by The Court, which, of course, is me. |
Detx
Member
Username: Detx
Post Number: 42
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 9:45 pm: | |
Some of the more inarticulate posters on this forum (Detroit Stylin) seem to be obsessed with statistics. To think that any census of homeless is reliable is ludicrous. Furthermore, since when do subjective comments need statistical verification? |
Ravine
Member
Username: Ravine
Post Number: 1501
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 9:51 pm: | |
*Ahem* Detx: The term "less articulate" is preferred, but "moron articulate" is also considered to be acceptable. |
Nainrouge
Member
Username: Nainrouge
Post Number: 285
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 10:14 pm: | |
So where do you get your statistics about the homeless committing assaults on innocent suburbanites anyway? Or is it just a reflection of your own fear? Did the "dirty man" scare you, PG? |
Nainrouge
Member
Username: Nainrouge
Post Number: 286
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 10:18 pm: | |
Yeah, lets not base any discussion on the mere facts. Why should we be obsessed with statistics when we have good old hearsay and innuendo! |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4350
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 10:26 pm: | |
The homeless people don't scare me personally, but other people will stay away because there are other places they can go and not be bothered. If you think that is a good thing, then whatever.
And yes, people have been assaulted by homeless people and many others in the streets of the city. When someone is approaching you, it is not always easy to know what their intentions are.
You are talking about over 13000 assaults and almost 22,000 thefts last year. Not to mention almost 600 rapes and over 400 murders. Of course most of these crimes were not committed against suburbanites, probably because they don't offer themselves up as targets by coming to the city that often.
However, if you think that given these stats and the notorious reputation the DPD has for not showing up when problems arise does not make certain people nervous when they are constantly being harassed by bums in the street then you are delusional.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on October 25, 2007) |
Nainrouge
Member
Username: Nainrouge
Post Number: 287
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 10:31 pm: | |
Quote: Anyone who charges up on me and badgers me for a handout has automatically, and completely, violated any conventionally shared concept of manners. Any response short of physical attack or violation of the person's rights is considered Acceptable by The Court, which, of course, is me.
So its ok for me to kick those Salvation Army people's asses? |
Nainrouge
Member
Username: Nainrouge
Post Number: 288
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 10:49 pm: | |
quote: You are talking about over 13000 assaults and almost 22,000 thefts last year. Not to mention almost 600 rapes and over 400 murders.
All committed by the homeless? Damn! They must be busy! No wonder they are sleeping in the casinos, they must be exhausted from all the raping and pillaging.
PG, your stats are ALMOST correct, although you seem to have some major rounding errors. http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/po lice/dept/compstat/tblcht.htm
Of course, these are the figures for all of Detroit not just downtown and there is no mention of how many of those crimes are committed by the homeless, so those stats are rather pointless to the discussion and prove nothing. Getting rid of the homeless downtown would NOT solve the crime problem for all of Detroit!
Actually a report done by Wayne State recently shows that our Downtown is safer than many major cities. But there I go with those damn facts again. I keep forgetting that you are all not interested in that. Here it is in case you might be interested anyway: http://www.tedconline.com/uplo ads/Downtown_Detroit_Crime_Stu dy_2006.pdf
How many of those crimes were committed against visitors to Detroit and how many are domestic disputes, drug related, etc.? |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4351
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 10:59 pm: | |
First of all, my figures were based on 2006, yours were 2005.
http://www.city-data.com/city/ Detroit-Michigan.html
Second of all, the folks who come into the city don't really think in terms of crime being isolated in certain areas. They hear and read about crime and they assume that it is a city wide problem. Of course getting rid of the homeless people downtown would not eliminate all crime, but it would make it a more desirable destination for people who may come in to the city and spend money, which is sorely needed.
There are national crime stats available from the DOJ that break down percentages by victim and the relationship they did or did not have to the perpetrator but of course they are not by city. I don't know if the city or the DPD has these stats or not.
In the end it doesn't matter. When you are in a city that has a notoriously high crime rate, and you are hassled in the street, the impression you form in your mind is that the rule of law is absent in that area. It is human nature. You can say that it is irrational or that people who fear bums are pussies all you want but the bottom line is that it is a detriment to the city and the attractions downtown.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on October 25, 2007) |
Nainrouge
Member
Username: Nainrouge
Post Number: 289
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2007 - 11:18 pm: | |
quote: Of course getting rid of the homeless people downtown would not eliminate all crime, but it a more desirable destination for people who may come in to the city and spend money, which is sorely needed.
So tell me how to solve it? Is there a city in the UNITED STATES that has done so? Seriously, how are you going to do that short of shooting them?
The fact is that the perceptions are out of whack, not the actual problem. The perceptions that are perpetuated by people like you that are not based on fact. Detroit's homelessness problem is bad, but it is no more or no less than any major US city. If you can't deal with it, then you need to stay out of ANY city or move to Toronto. Do I want people to be scared to come downtown? No, but what are you going to do about it? It is a fact of life in urban America. If you are a pussy (your term, not mine) than what can ANYONE do to make you feel safe enough to leave your ivory tower? |
Diehard
Member
Username: Diehard
Post Number: 176
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 12:31 am: | |
And to think I thought I was being nice by giving a beggar an apple. Wow.
Nainrouge, you seem angry, and I'm not sure why, but I guarantee that if that guy had pounded on my car window and said his truck broke down and he needed X amount for the bus, I would've assumed he was trying to scam (or carjack) me. Why? Because I hear the same story over and over when I go to the Majestic, or the coneys, or Greektown. The vast majority of the time you hear that story it's a scam. I've learned to expect it. I'm sorry about that one time it happened to an innocent guy who just happened to be in downtown Detroit and was telling the truth and had nobody he could call. Most of us are jaded by all the liars and know better.
How do I KNOW he's going to spend my two dollars on booze? You're right, I don't know that for certain. I only said there's a good chance. I still think the truly needy are better served by my donations to the Salvation Army - who have never chased me down the street with a red bucket for my change. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4353
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 1:32 am: | |
quote:The fact is that the perceptions are out of whack, not the actual problem.
On the contrary, the perceptions of the city are based on the grim reality of the statistics. People ARE being carjacked, robbed, assaulted, raped and murdered all too often in the city. I suppose that if you were bothered by a homeless person in a city that did NOT have a reputation of having a high crime rate, the perception would be different. Such is not the case in Detroit.
And yes I understand that most of the time the homeless are not committing the majority of these crimes, although certain people probably can't tell who is a homeless guy and who is thug coming their way to rob them.
You seem to think the problem is hopeless and nothing can be done. I disagree. There are many cities that have taken any number of measures to reduce the incidence of people begging in areas that cater to tourists or visitors to the city. |
Bearinabox
Member
Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 313
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 1:48 am: | |
quote:certain people probably can't tell who is a homeless guy and who is thug coming their way to rob them.
If all the homeless disappeared from downtown, "certain people" would start freaking out when some ordinary, hard-working Detroiter asked them for the time as they walked by the bus stop. When you're convinced you're in a dangerous part of town, everyone looks like a thug. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4356
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 1:52 am: | |
I don't completely disagree. That is why public safety should be the top priority for city government. It WILL take alot more than keeping the bums from bothering people. It will take REAL and meaningful reductions in the crime rate for a sustained period of time before that negative perception will begin to fade. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 3004
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 2:39 am: | |
"There are many cities that have taken any number of measures to reduce the incidence of people begging in areas that cater to tourists or visitors to the city."
not with any humanity, mind you
I hear Sarasota calling you, PG.
20 Meanest Cities
While most cities throughout the country have either laws or practices that criminalize homeless persons, some city practices or laws have stood out as more egregious than others in their attempt to criminalize homelessness. The National Coalition for the Homeless and the National Law Center on Homelessness & Poverty have chosen the following top 20 meanest cities in 2005 based on one or more of the following criteria: the number of anti-homeless laws in the city, the enforcement of those laws and severities of penalties, the general political climate toward homeless people in the city, local advocate support for the meanest designation, the city’s history of criminalization measures, and the existence of pending or recently enacted criminalization legislation in the city. Although some of the report’s top 20 meanest cities have made some efforts to address homelessness in their communities, the punitive practices highlighted in the report impede true progress in solving the problem.
1. Sarasota, FL
2. Lawrence, KS
3. Little Rock, AR
4. Atlanta, GA
5. Las Vegas, NV
6. Dallas, TX
7. Houston, TX
8. San Juan, PR
9. Santa Monica, CA
10. Flagstaff, AZ
11. San Francisco, CA
12. Chicago, IL
13. San Antonio, TX
14. New York City, NY
15. Austin, TX
16. Anchorage, AK
17. Phoenix, AZ
18. Los Angeles, CA
19. St. Louis, MO
20. Pittsburgh, PA |
Nickstone
Member
Username: Nickstone
Post Number: 17
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 3:09 am: | |
All very interesting, some disturbing... I live faithfully at Trolley Plaza and have a lot of first-hand observation experience... there's a lot of homeless here in our city, but I went to visit my brother in Washington DC and was stunned at the homeless population there... Detroit has just always been the sort of city that people are quick to point out the downsides and ignore all the massive ups... it "is what it is" in our city and we have to deal with it... the new MGM has seen this problem and is doing what they can do deter the homeless from coming in (they charge for EVERYTHING including WATER!)... no free ride anymore... we'll see what happens. I play music in the city and am constantly harrassed by the homeless going into clubs, casinos, what have you. It's a fact of life in the city... any city. And I've been into Wal Mart in the suburbs and those who stink there are generally not homeless looking... just of other ethnicities that don't put the kind of weight on bathing that we do... some people should probably re-evaluate their jumps to conclusions... and also Detroit needs to focus on their positives... Detroit population, myself included, needs to start becoming Detroit cheerleaders instead of always harping on the bad... the city is trying, slowwwwwly... to work on its issues... give it time people... years of Coleman Young and ill planning put this city where it is... I'm not sure Kwame is the man for the job but things are turning around... if slowly... cross your fingers! |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 4360
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 26, 2007 - 3:11 am: | |
Lilpup -
You call them mean, and you are entitled to your opinion. I find it hard to fathom that 20 largish cities in the US cracked down on vagrants just to be "mean." Clearly they have experienced the problems I mentioned and are attempting to deal with the problem.
They are responding to the concerns of the residents and the business owners of their cities. Ignoring the issue doesn't seem to be the way to go.
I think part of the problem is that in the past, you would see a homeless person sitting passively on the corner with a tin cup and you could just throw your pocket change in there. The new breed of panhandler seems to be far more aggressive and "in your face."
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on October 26, 2007) |
Renfirst
Member
Username: Renfirst
Post Number: 78
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 4:56 am: | |
The National Coalition for the Homeless and the National Law Center on Homelessness & Poverty
Is this a lobbiest group for the homeless?
Now that would be something... the homeless in this country get a K-Street lobbiest to push for more rights... Panhandlers unite for better conditions, lol. |
Renfirst
Member
Username: Renfirst
Post Number: 79
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 4:58 am: | |
I just noticed that their only online advertiser is Hilton... come on now. A hotel advertising on a coalition site for the homeless??? LOL |
Gnome
Member
Username: Gnome
Post Number: 278
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - 7:04 am: | |
The largest collection of homeless folks I've runinto on a consistant basis is inside the libraries in Detroit, Pontiac and Southfield and surprisingly - Birmingham.
In Birmingham, there is a married couple who are inside almost every day. She likes to research her geneology and plan trips to France - he believes he is a radio station programer who is having a problem with Clear Channel and Micheal Powell of the FCC.
Besides being a bit disshelved, and slightly deranged, they are quite nice, and contrast sharply with the truely fucking nuts you run into in Pontiac. The loud talking to themselves, the shitting in their pants, the whole crazy gambit.
Detroit too has a singular flavor in the homeless library users. The Detroiters appear to have more of a military background than the Pontiac loons.
I wonder if the folks in Library Science are required to study crowd control and homeless outreach while gaining their Masters in Lib Sci. |
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