  Getreal Member Username: Getreal Post Number: 10 Registered: 05-2007 |
Mike Duggan is on the attack!••• | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 2939 Registered: 02-2004 |
Mike Duggan better tread carefully. If he wants to be governor. Which we hear he really really does. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 3854 Registered: 03-2006 |
Well, unionization has worked so well for the Big 3, who can argue with success? I for one would be thrilled to be in a hospital where at any moment the nurses could go out on strike. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 6512 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well, in the last month or SEIU locals all over Michigan merged into SEIU Healthcare Michigan allowing for more bargaining power. www.seiuhealthcaremi.org | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 2941 Registered: 02-2004 |
This isn't an SEIU organizing drive. Michigan Nurses Association www.minurses.org From Southeastern Michigan Jobs with Justice CANDLELIGHT VIGIL In Support of DMC RNs Thursday October 18, 2007 6:30pm- 8:00pm Harper/Hutzel Hospital 3990 John R Detroit, MI 48201 · Quality Care for our Community · Charge Nurses are NOT Supervisors · Respect RN VOICE · Stop the use of public funds to fight RNs Nearly 2,000 RNs are organizing with Michigan Nurses Association and fighting for a Fair Election Agreement at the Detroit Medical Center. Come out and Join Us! For more information call 248-799-0808 | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1949 Registered: 11-2003 |
I don't know if Mike Duggan really has that much of a shot at governor at this point anyway... | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 6513 Registered: 10-2003 |
Thanks ORF, without a link to the story I wasn't sure. | ||
Paulmcall Member Username: Paulmcall Post Number: 470 Registered: 05-2004 |
It's the aides that do most of the work these days. Nurses just hand out pills and push paper. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 2947 Registered: 02-2004 |
Hmmmmmm. Must be why there's a shortage, it's such easy work. | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 503 Registered: 08-2006 |
quote:Yeah, they've certainly brought the UM Health System to the brink of destruction. Boy, I remember when that place had a good reputation... | ||
Abracadabra Member Username: Abracadabra Post Number: 127 Registered: 04-2007 |
MGM Food and Beverage has accepted to go on strike. Though it suits me personally, I have a hard time with waitstaff that makes around $3.45/hr elsewhere and currently pulls in over $15/hr striking. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 5461 Registered: 11-2006 |
A huge error if they unionize. If Duggan is against it, he will be opposed to a core principle of his party...an interesting paradox. | ||
Blueidone Member Username: Blueidone Post Number: 145 Registered: 03-2007 |
In my humble opinion, the problem with unionizing nurses will be the change in patient care. I have had the experience of having a critically ill family member in the hospital here, where the nurses were in a union, versus a hospital in another state where they were not. The level of care was at least 70% better in the hospital outside of Michigan. I was present 24/7 at both hospitals and for the most part, nurses that are in a union are more concerned about whether what needs to be done is in their job description than whether the patient is in need...or whether it's time for a break or time to change an IV. And if you need an IV changed and the "IV nurse" is on break...well, too bad. But I suppose in this state where being in a union means everything, it is inevitable. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 5536 Registered: 11-2006 |
Healthcare in general needs no further distractions from its' primary mission. It is enough to feel the pressure towards lesser care placed on us by our partial socialized system as it is today. Let's concentrate on preventing the catastrophe that would be Hillary care socialized medicine first. Union BS is the last thing needed. | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 507 Registered: 08-2006 |
quote:So I'll repeat my earlier point: we have two major tertiary care medical centers in Southeastern Michigan--one with unionized nurses, one without. Are you (and others) suggesting that nursing care at UMMC is inferior to that at the DMC? | ||
Getreal Member Username: Getreal Post Number: 12 Registered: 05-2007 |
Hey wait a minute! On my unit we don't have any aides, we do total care. And guess what? The nurse practitioners do practically all the Doctors work. The Doctor is only on the unit to make rounds with the nurse practitioners. Rounds last for about an hour at most. I used to think that before I was a nurse that the physician was the most important member of the team. He's not. Nurses are equally important as they are with the patient for eight to twelve hours. She is the one who will be looking for any signs of trouble. She will be the one who notify physicians and other healthcare personnel if you things go bad. . She will be the one who will call a code if need be. The nurse will be the first one to to try and revive you. She is the one the Physician depends on to get a full report on a patient. The Doctor is not there looking after you!! Nursing is the hardest and most stressful job I have have ever had and I have had a number of demanding careers. The reason why there is a shortage is because most nurses quit the profession, mainly because of poor working conditions (too many patients) low salaries with too much responsibility and too much stress. A lot of nurses at DMC want to unionize so that they will be able to give better patient care. We have had a lot of problems at DMC such as not enough nurses, not enough equipment and lack of support staff. We have asked Duggen and his management team for help for years and have more or less ignored. I think we do a great job at Hutzel but we could better if we had less patients to care for. Did you ever hear the phrase "nursing burnout"? It a frequently used concept in healthcare literature. As for Duggan, he is first and foremost a lawyer and a politician. What does that say about his character? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 4029 Registered: 03-2006 |
quote: Sad but true. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 5540 Registered: 11-2006 |
Zephyr, te unionization will degrade the quality of care from its' current level. You can't compare Uofm and the DMC. However, a nonunionized UofM would have better quality of care than a unionized one. | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 419 Registered: 07-2007 |
unionization would be excellent at DMC, I would love to have a nurse about to change the sheets and then say oops, sorry, it is time for my union break, i need to go now. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 5576 Registered: 11-2006 |
Or how about threatening to strike? | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 509 Registered: 08-2006 |
quote:Of course you can't compare them: that might result in an unfavorable conclusion. Better to argue by postulate. quote:Again, we don't have to imagine whether this would happen--we have actual unionized nurses to observe in the real world. Are you asserting that this happens? | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 5606 Registered: 11-2006 |
Zephyr, the comparison/study is not useful because there are huge confounding factors. The only valid comparison is a unionized versus nonunionized hospital (before and after). Or a closely matched set of 2 hospitals (UofM and the DMC are not even close) | ||
Vas Member Username: Vas Post Number: 832 Registered: 01-2004 |
Nurses are being stretched so thin right now. Every floor is usually short. No wonder they want to join a union and have some rights. Quality of work goes, up because unionized places attract the best nurses because of the higher pay. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 4039 Registered: 03-2006 |
Actually unions protect incompetent workers all of the time, higher functioning people do NOT prefer unions. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 1074 Registered: 10-2003 |
As a businessman who understands why unions are bad for individuals, organizations and end results, I am also not a bit surprised by the drive for unionization of nurses at many medical facilities. My wife is an ex-nurse. They were treated like crap when she quit 14 years ago... its worse now. Treat your employees well and you don't run into these problems (funny, that's the argument my father used to give me for the auto unions). | ||
Islandman Member Username: Islandman Post Number: 1028 Registered: 08-2004 |
This issue would not be a problem if hospital management did not put nurses in a position where they are taking care of too many patients and risk losing their nursing license. This is just one major issue; there are many more. If Michigan would pass (and enforce) legislation to protect nurses, perhaps unionization would be a moot point. California has done so for nurse/patient ratios. While I am used to the antiunion stance from certain people here, this is a situation where poor working conditions are the driving factor. | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 510 Registered: 08-2006 |
quote:Really? I can go anecdote-to-anecdote with you on that one. I am reminded of the assertions that only criminals seek civil rights protections. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 4063 Registered: 03-2006 |
Yeah, we all have anecdotes on this stuff. My opinion is based on 25 years in the auto industry and seeing the union mentality first hand. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 2977 Registered: 02-2004 |
I hope in the brave new world of the future, there will still be one remaining, profit only driven, non union, hire the cheapest employee hospital in Detroit. And I hope Perfectgentleman is stuck in it. Candlelight vigil this evening at Hutzel/Harper, 6:30. On John R. Support the DMC nurses. Bring a candle and your good wishes (a pillar candle in a medium sized PAPER cup works really well. Cut a hole in the bottom of the cup, insert the candle, wick up in the candle, use remaining candle as handle and the cup will block the wind) | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 4067 Registered: 03-2006 |
There are actually alot of hospitals around here ORF, Beaumont is investing heavily in the area and is trying to crush DMC. If you think making them less competitive at this juncture is wise then knock yourself out. Maybe you will have a candlelight vigil when DMC closes down. | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 249 Registered: 07-2005 |
Why can't the nurses be honest about this and admit that this isn't primarily about the patients. The DMC's finances are hanging by a thread. Where are they going to find the money to hire more nurses and to raise their pay? You can bet the union isn't suggesting that their pay remain the same. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 5532 Registered: 08-2004 |
PG, putting all your proverbial "eggs in one basket", in basing your measurement of ALL unions in your 25 year association with the UAW is rather myopic, don't you think? I was a member of the retail workers union back in the 1970's, and found them to be a fair and flexible union that protected its' workers, but did not go over the top in dominating a company's workers and their jobs like the UAW does. Think of it like you would every other group... there are good and bad. If nursing fails to attract nurses, then there's a problem that needs to be addressed. And since the status quo isn't doing so, maybe it is time to try a union. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 2979 Registered: 02-2004 |
Why won't you believe that this is about staffing levels and patient care? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 4072 Registered: 03-2006 |
Gistok - You are assuming that the majority of nurses actually want the union and that the promises being made to them by the union would actually come to pass. That is not what I am hearing. I am sure some unions are better than others but common patterns do emerge. The story from the poster above that compared a union hospital and a non-union one I think is relevant. Inevitably the issues of work rules, break times, job descriptions and the like do come into play in a unionized environment. In a hospital setting, I would prefer that decisions be made on medical necessity as opposed to union rules. It is also unwise to disconnect wages and workforce size in a fashion that is disconnected from market forces. Yes, patient care needs to be factored in first and foremost. I don't see how unions actually do that though. DMC is not in a position to offer alot more money or hire more nurses from what I am reading, forcing them to do that will only make them less competitive and financially stable. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on October 18, 2007) | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 250 Registered: 07-2005 |
I suppose the UAW is there to protect the american consumer from inferior cars too. To suggest that this is about anything other than the best interests of the nurses is an insult to our intelligence. this quote seems to indicate that the quality of care is fairly high. http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20071005/B IZ/710050350/1040/LIFESTYLE03 "But, he said, nurse-patient ratios are within nationally accepted standards, and patient care isn't suffering. He noted the inclusion of Harper and Hutzel on a recent short list of hospitals nationwide ranked high in quality and safety. It was compiled by the Leapfrog Group, a coalition of businesses, foundations and government agencies interested in improving hospital quality and safety." Maybe their efforts would be better spent trying to change the national (or at least local) standards for nurse patient ratios. Gistok: Come on. You think a union is necessary to attract more people to the job? If there is truly a nursing shortage the market will eventually fix it. Take that to the bank. It might take awhile to train new nurses, but it will happen. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 4075 Registered: 03-2006 |
I spent 10 days in Harper and the nurses were great and the overall experience was very positive. Sure, the ratio was higher in ICU and the nurses came in immediately when you wanted them. It took a little longer when I was transferred to the floor but no worse than anywhere else. There was some specialization too, there was an IV nurse dedicated to that position when I was there which the nurses said was as a result of Duggan responding to their suggestions. I am sure he will give them more money as they continue to progress financially. | ||
Islandman Member Username: Islandman Post Number: 1033 Registered: 08-2004 |
Two of my children were born at Beaumont RO. The experiences were complete different in 5 years time. When my son was born, 10 nurses had just quit the week before because of patient ratios at that facility. Service was so bad that I talked to a hospital admin. I found why they left from a fellow nursing student that was working there at the time. If you guys think this is about nurses just being greedy and thinking about themselves, there is more to it than that. As I said before, many of these things could be addressed with legislation, but lobbying has stifled much of this. What other recourse do nurses have if they are hampered by management and the corporations that own hospitals? | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 251 Registered: 07-2005 |
Islandman you are proving my point. According to you, nurses at Beaumont quit because there weren't enough nurses. If the nurses at Beaumont were so concerned about patient care then why would they quit? Didn't your experience suggest that their actions actually exacerbated the problem. By the way, I have no problem with the nurses quiting. If Beaumont wants to maintain high standards, in a competitive environment, they will have to provide working conditions suitable to attract quality nurses. | ||
Blueidone Member Username: Blueidone Post Number: 147 Registered: 03-2007 |
Beaumont RO Hospital nurses are unionized and have been for some time, I believe. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. | ||
Islandman Member Username: Islandman Post Number: 1036 Registered: 08-2004 |
Blueidone, This was back in 2003, so I don't know if something has changed since then. Spartacus, This is what management counts on. This argument is always brought up ad infinitum. If no other recourse is left, what do you do? Many would rather quit then lose their license. If you are taking care of too many patients and something bad happens, guess who is the first person in the crosshairs of losing their license? | ||
Raptor56 Member Username: Raptor56 Post Number: 137 Registered: 05-2007 |
GetReal: I agree. Both times I had the unfortunate opportunity to spend time caring for grandparents in ICU, I couldn't believe how much work the nurses did. Rarely if ever saw a nurses aid. From what I hear from my parents who both work in healthcare (Dad's a psych nurse), a nurse practitioner is the field to get into now. BIG money and you're doing about as much as a doctor. These nurses are doing about as much as the Physicians Assistants now. As to the DMC, I'm surprised they aren't a union already. Being in Detroit and all. And Speaking of striking nurses, are the nurses at Petoskey's Hospital still on strike? I believe last I checked, it had been close to a 10 year strike. | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 427 Registered: 07-2007 |
go ahead, unionize, i won't go there again. | ||
Blueidone Member Username: Blueidone Post Number: 148 Registered: 03-2007 |
Islandman: My mother was in Beaumont in the late 80's and again in the late 90's. I am pretty sure they were unionized then. That's where I got the line "I can't change your mom's IV...I'm not the IV nurse. She is on dinner break...you'll have to wait till she gets back." The person talking was an RN, not an LPN or an aide. She was perfectly capable of changing the IV, but "it wasn't her job". | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 5611 Registered: 11-2006 |
No, not unionized at Beaumont...just a big place where staff can get lost and not play as a team should. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 4088 Registered: 03-2006 |
I agree CC, we had our kids delivered at Beaumont back in 89,91 and it was good but I took my mom there a few times in the last year and I was not impressed at all. The staff was not real pleasant to deal with. Not sure what is going on there. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 5672 Registered: 11-2006 |
Too big and unwieldy. Unfortunately, most smaller hospitals have been gobbled up by big multicenter corporations, or are hurting for money. |
