 
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10551
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 10:51 am: |    |
quote:MCS is more of a disaster for Corktown than TS is.
I disagree. MCS is on its own and while it is ugly it is not an impediment to a neighborhood or a retail strip. |
Civilprotectionunit4346
Member
Username: Civilprotectionunit4346
Post Number: 546
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 10:54 am: | |
I think they should shop MCS around to some developers...It's defin worth Rehab'ing. |
E_hemingway
Member
Username: E_hemingway
Post Number: 1382
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 11:04 am: | |
MCS is not owned by the city. |
Civilprotectionunit4346
Member
Username: Civilprotectionunit4346
Post Number: 553
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 11:19 am: | |
Thats good..because then it won't get tore down. |
Ndavies
Member
Username: Ndavies
Post Number: 2816
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 12:59 pm: | |
quote:Thats good..because then it won't get tore down.
LOL, No, It will just be left to rot. No development. No tear down. Just continuing decay. |
Civilprotectionunit4346
Member
Username: Civilprotectionunit4346
Post Number: 558
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 1:06 pm: | |
Better then them knocking it down. That place would be great to re-hab. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3163
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 1:06 pm: | |
Speaking of MCS, check out this Detroit News article from 2001.
http://www.railfan.net/lists/r shsdepot-digest/200103/msg0027 5.html
" Three formerly elegant downtown hotels -- the Sheraton-Cadillac, the Statler Hilton and the Pick-Fort Shelby -- all have been vacant for years and hold little or no hope of ever being rehabbed. Tiger Stadium was shuttered two years ago. Plans to convert it into a retail/entertainment/housing development are mostly pipe dreams.
Ford Auditorium, once at the heart of Detroit's civic center, has been padlocked since the late 1980s. Attempts to tear it down and fill its valuable waterfront acreage with more lucrative commercial structures have been thwarted twice, classic examples that Detroit's bark is far worse than its bite."
Interesting assumptions. |
E_hemingway
Member
Username: E_hemingway
Post Number: 1383
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 1:11 pm: | |
That's a column, and check the author. He is not known as a Detroit booster. But you're right that those are interesting assumptions. |
Spacemonkey
Member
Username: Spacemonkey
Post Number: 237
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 1:11 pm: | |
I would like to have seen old Tiger Stadium become a dirt track for midget car racing. That would have been COOL. |
Aiw
Member
Username: Aiw
Post Number: 6408
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 1:13 pm: | |
quote:Reason why I saw that is most of them art dumb ass artsy fartsy photoggers! If you like there work then so be it. Me & my friends have more appreciation for the place then they did. Most of them got to go because they where nice little brown nosers...
Why are "artsy fartsy" photographers dumb ass?
How do you know their level of appreciation?
How do you know they are brown nosers? Who are they brown nosing?
To top it off your spelling makes my head hurt.
I don't think it's the photographers that are the dumb asses.
Someone like Urban Tiki has a great eye, and is extremely talented. He's hardly a "no talent hack". |
Ndavies
Member
Username: Ndavies
Post Number: 2817
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 1:52 pm: | |
quote:Better then them knocking it down. That place would be great to re-hab.
Bullshit. There is no developer in the world that's going to bring that monstrosity back. It needs to come down.
It's too big and too expensive to renovate. It's in a location that has no demand for that type of building. Anyone putting that kind of money in is going to want new. |
Gumby
Member
Username: Gumby
Post Number: 1618
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 2:44 pm: | |
quote:Bullshit. There is no developer in the world that's going to bring that monstrosity back. It needs to come down.
I am sure there were people who said that about the Vinton Building at one time. |
Rbdetsport
Member
Username: Rbdetsport
Post Number: 392
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 3:39 pm: | |
Think about how great it would be to be able to look out a condo window and see the entire Detroit Skyline. Someone will come in and make that building residential. I just don't know what will happen to the old train yard. I invision a two-team development. One developer for the tower and station and one developer for the train yard. Roosevelt Park will be the new hot spot. I am not saying this is going to happen very soon. It will probably happen in at least 5 more years. |
Ndavies
Member
Username: Ndavies
Post Number: 2819
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 3:44 pm: | |
Yes, but the MCS is at least 10 times the size of the Vinton.
Do you have the $300-$400 million to pay for the things this building needs in Rehab? Can you come up with 600 people to help you pay for the rehab.
Can you find tenants who is going to want all that space? A building without sustainable tenants is just another empty building.
We found 10 people with enough cash to get the Vinton done. I'm sure you have 600 friends who can come up with a half mill each. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3179
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 3:47 pm: | |
First you'd have to get Matty to sell the thing, and he'd charge you 5x what it could possibly be worth. |
Jmarx
Member
Username: Jmarx
Post Number: 35
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 4:25 pm: | |
What's interesting about that Freep article is the following quote:
"Demolition bids for most of the stadium will go out in about two weeks and could be approved in November with actual dismantling the following month, Brian Holdwick said Wednesday."
Based on the above it seems that the city is planning on dismantling (tearing down) a 'portion' of the stadium while leaving the rest intact for several months...? So are they going to 'cap' whatever structure they leave? (Ie. I would think it takes a certain amount of engineering/structural work to dismantle and leave part of the stadium...?)
So we're going to have a half torn-down TS for several months? This just seems fishy to me... |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 3187
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 4:28 pm: | |
I thought leaving part of the stadium and ball field was the plan? I don't think it's fishy. |
Mcwalbucksnfitch
Member
Username: Mcwalbucksnfitch
Post Number: 65
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 4:30 pm: | |
Yes but it will be fishy when there is half-destroyed structural steel emerging from both sides of whatever part they don't tear down. |
Eric
Member
Username: Eric
Post Number: 964
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 8:28 pm: | |
quote:First you'd have to get Matty to sell the thing, and he'd charge you 5x what it could possibly be worth.
More than the cost of renovation this is the biggest challenge facing MCS, getting the building in the hands of someone that gives a damn. Compare our situation to that of Buffalo, where their abandoned train station is owned by a dedicated group of preservationist
(http://buffalocentralterminal. org/) who've mothballed the building.
MCS could be saved if the city/county grew a pair of balls and took Matty's ass to court to seize the property |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 2955
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 10:13 pm: | |
with all the truck traffic through the area it seems like developing container shipping to here to be trucked elsewhere would be viable - fill the place with trucking company offices - I wonder how much stuff that's Canada bound gets container dropped in Cleveland and trucked up |
623kraw
Member
Username: 623kraw
Post Number: 929
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 9:28 am: | |
Another pathetic waste in the D. Sorry I've been gone for so long. Why wasn't Ernie Harwell's plan realized? The site (as usual) rocks Lowell... |
Eric
Member
Username: Eric
Post Number: 965
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 11:22 am: | |
quote:What I don't understand is why the nonprofit that is attempting to save TS just doesn't put up a website and ask for donations"
Give these people some credit they're not stupid, they're working on a site it just hasn't gone live yet. Anyone know when it will be up?
http://www.oldtigerstadiumcons ervancy.org/ |
Ndavies
Member
Username: Ndavies
Post Number: 2820
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 6:07 pm: | |
quote:Why wasn't Ernie Harwell's plan realized?
Ernie's plan didn't pan out? When He tried to execute his plan, He realized it was not feasible. He stopped his plan and joined the Tiger stadium conservancy group.
quote:MCS could be saved if the city/county grew a pair of balls and took Matty's ass to court to seize the property
There's no way the city would be successful. It would be caught up in court forever. Look at how long it took to obtain the east river front land for the casinos. The city was never able to obtain it all. and what it did get it had to pay millions more for after the case went through court.
And the imminent domain laws were recently strengthened by a ballot proposal.
This would be exactly the same type of lawsuit.
As long as you pay your property taxes it is extremely hard for the city to get title. |
Oilcan_harry
Member
Username: Oilcan_harry
Post Number: 20
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, October 20, 2007 - 11:57 pm: | |
TS most likely would'nt have made a good Midget racing track. They did just that very thing to an old baseball stadium in Indy. They raced there for 2 or 3 years but it just didn't work well. The track had to be an odd shape and length and that did'nt make for good racing. However the seating was some of the best I've ever seen at any race track. The facility is closed down now and it's future uncertain.
(Message edited by oilcan_harry on October 21, 2007) |
Auberon
Member
Username: Auberon
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 2:25 am: | |
Setting the record straight:
Contrary to the misinformed opinion(s) some individuals may have deliberately developed, the Flickr group was not admitted "because they where(sp) nice little brown nosers...".
The Flickr group was admitted into TS because I organized an event that would pay the maximum return to the maximum number of participants. I worked with the City for nearly 5 months (or so it felt) to gain legal access to the Stadium.
I suspect that someone who submitted their request to be a part of the tour feels left out, and instead of being an adult and approaching ME directly to discuss the matter, chose rather to take it to the streets. Man up and talk to ME, stop treating the situation like it's third grade.
For the record, I wanted anyone who was interested in going to be able to go. If you recall from the news broadcasts, that same week there was some very bad press concerning TS (Kevin Dietz undercover). THAT story changed everything. What most people don't know is that the City realized after some time that they had an obligation to those of us that remained true fans throughout the years. I read comments above that we flickr members don't really have an appreciation for TS. A comment like that doesn't even really deserve a response beyond the obvious "how the hell would you even know?
" Back to the story. I worked on two things with the City, absolute access for Flickr members, and possible access for the Public at large. The plan WAS going to be simple really. All flickr members would register through me, and my list would serve as VIP access for a date certain. THEN, the city was going to open up to the public an opportunity to pre-register to come see the same tour, on the same day. There was talk of group size limitation from the beginning, but it always sounded like there would be room for at least 50 people. Kevin Dietz did his little story about the security guard letting people in illegally, and the next thing you know, I was told that the public event had been permanently cancelled, but that I could bring myself and a buddy or two.
Myself and a buddy or two.
Imagine the uproar if I had just taken that offer, and took the easy and selfish route. I am not that kind of person. I have a true appreciation for Detroit, and love to share in my experiences with as many people as possible.
Over the course of 4 hours and repeated phone calls back and forth, that offer went from "you and a buddy or two at 2PM today" to "no more than 20 people that you can personally vouch for, and it's tomorrow at 2PM take it or leave it."
I made the selections based on two criteria, response time to my original posting and that members relationship with Exposure.Detroit (a flickr group). If I were to have taken the first 18 that responded to me (I'm allowing myself one guest, as I had put in all the work), that would have included 9 people who do not live or work in the State of Michigan. Should I have taken those people who joined the group just to have the chance of going to TS? That is why I looked at both criteria...was that person a standing member of the group, and did they respond in a reasonable first come first serve basis? Responses were also made directly to me, and not necessarily posted to the groups message board, for those of you still reading and interested.
To wrap this up, it's unfortunate that I have to explain what actually happened. It's also unfortunate that I see such childish things as "no talent hacks with no appreciation"...I stood in the same spot I stood back in 84 waiting to get out on the field, moments later Chet Lemon became my hero, and Kirk Gibson forever became someone to loathe. I relived that entire moment in my life during our time inside the park. I have a thousand stories like that to share. But with no real appreciation, I guess we should just keep those kinds of memories to ourselves.
What happens next? Well, there are many many other opportunities to be had within the City. Will I share the news when one of these opportunities present themselves after untold hours of negotiation? After reading a thread like this, probably not.
Maybe next time around it will just be me and a buddy or two. |
Lifeinmontage
Member
Username: Lifeinmontage
Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 2:44 am: | |
we could start a new thread and go on an on about the MCS. my plan: boycott the bridge and take the tunnel until matty either puts into motion a plan for MCS or sells it someone who gives a damn about something other than their wallet |
Catman_dude
Member
Username: Catman_dude
Post Number: 246
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 5:28 am: | |
Auberon, thank you for coming to the DetroitYes forum! It is unfortunate it had to be under these circumstances. But in any case, thanks for your hard work and the informative write-up of getting some flickr members into TS. The TS photos by some of the flickr members who were there are wonderful but yet with a twinge of sadness of photos of someone's last dying days. But those photos are going to be historic. |
Jmarx
Member
Username: Jmarx
Post Number: 36
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 2:09 pm: | |
Thanks for the website link, Eric! (http://www.oldtigerstadiumcons ervancy.org) I'll keep checking back to see when it goes live... |
Southen
Member
Username: Southen
Post Number: 325
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 2:49 pm: | |
Im not exactly sure what civilprotectionunit's problem or agenda is but im proud to be a part of of the exposure.detroit group on flickr and was one of the people left off the list. I hold no ill feelings towards Auberon, the man busted tail to get whatever he could, and the many talented photographers that got a chance to go in captured the stadium well.
cpu your attacks are unwarranted and frankly a joke. Your jealous that they got to go in there and you werent able to so your attacking them. Just because your style of photography, decay/urban exploration, doesnt fit with theirs doesnt make it artsy fartsy.
For those who are into photography or interested in local, talented photographers you can check out the exposure.Detroit group on flickr.
http://www.flickr.com/groups/e xposuredetroit/
Great people involved and every other month they have a show in Royal Oak thats free to the public. I would suggest checking it out. |
Urbantiki
Member
Username: Urbantiki
Post Number: 844
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 22, 2007 - 9:13 pm: | |
People like civilprotectionunit (who I'm guessing was part of the actual Flickr group that was 'left out') are the reason I quit this forum years ago.
Tis true... there **is** no joy in Mudville.
(thanks for the kind words, aiw. Hope all is well with you.) |
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