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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 623
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Friday, September 14, 2007 - 7:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No need to cut revenue sharing. Just cut the outrageous benefits that state employees receive.

• Reduce the golden parachute of benefits of the remainder of the 52,500 state employees from $27k per year to say, $12k max per year. Save: $788 million

• Do not pay any increase in benefits for state bureaucrats scheduled for 2008 (from Grandstand's own budget and beyond the $27k current). Save: $147 million

Total Savings: $935 million.

This should be done at a minimum, before the hard-working people of Michigan are asked to pay one penny more out of their take-home pay.

And Umcs, I'm not your research bitch, but I found this link in about two seconds with public/private benefits comparison.

http://www.mackinac.org/articl e.aspx?ID=8207
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 624
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Friday, September 14, 2007 - 8:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And Novine, you fail to understand Grandstand's Ultimate Hustle. It is an act in three parts:

1. Keep Grandstand's Sacred Cow (bureaucrat staffing, salaries and benefits) off limits and out of the budget discussion at all costs.

2. Repeatedly scare the public by threatening to cut popular/sensitive programs like school funding, parks, revenue sharing, ect., which in turn, will get people all worked up.

3. Propose a huge tax increase as a way to "save" funding for sensitive programs.

A rather simple hustle, but it appears to work rather well on dumb-ass motherfuckers in Michigan.
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 3885
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Friday, September 14, 2007 - 9:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree UMCS, but for the opposite reason. Shut it down, and see that these prized and expensive services are not so sorely missed or needed.
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Perfectgentleman
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Username: Perfectgentleman

Post Number: 2739
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Friday, September 14, 2007 - 9:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Friends,

Greetings from the balcony above the floor of the Michigan House of Representatives.

The House convened session at 10:00am this morning and it is now almost 9:00pm. Efforts early in the day to get a two-thirds vote needed to place constitutional amendments on the January 15th presidential primary ballot for a sales tax increase and a graduated income tax failed by wide margins. So the Speaker moved for a vote on an 18% state income tax.

As soon as the voting board was opened, 41 representatives voted ‘yes’ (all Democrats), voted 51 ‘no’ (all Republicans), and 14 have refused to cast a vote (all Democrats). The voting board has been left open since 2:00pm and is still open (meaning legislators are still free to cast or change their votes). Not one representative has changes his or her vote.

Why have 14 Democrats refused to vote? Could be the giant pink pig on the front lawn of the Capitol with the words, “NO! On Lansing’s Tax Hike!” on his sides. That right, the Michigan Taxpayers Alliance’s mascot can be clearly seen from the windows on the House floor. The Republicans all voted ‘no’, even the squishy ones (so far), and the Democrats from swing seats refuse to vote because they are concerned that citizens will recall them.

The rumors of deals being cut are thicker than smoke in the back room. One Republican legislator told me moments ago that he turned down an unopposed shot at a senate seat if he would switch his vote. One Republican allegedly has been offered an judicial appointment by the governor.

There are absolutely NO signs that the voting board will be closed anytime soon, and lawmakers are getting restless and frustrated. Total impasse.

On my way up to the Capitol today, Mr. Perks the pig in tow, I received a call from Senator Roger Kahn who was angry that his office had received over 200 calls opposing tax increases. The radio ads that the MTA was running on the Rush Limbaugh show were having the desired effect. I informed the Senator that he merely has to announce publicly his opposition to any tax increase – and the ads would cease. We would even run some ads praising him.

Well, back to sitting up here in the balcony, staring at bored legislators and a frozen voting board. Its going to be a long night.

Leon Drolet
MI Taxpayers Alliance
www.mitaxpayers.org
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 3913
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Friday, September 14, 2007 - 11:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A game of chicken? Or a big bluff?
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 137
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 1:09 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Reduce the golden parachute of benefits of the remainder of the 52,500 state employees from $27k per year to say, $12k max per year. Save: $788 million "

So you're just making numbers up? Why not cut it to zero? Let's see if you can even tell us what those numbers represent or if you're just pulling them out of a hat.
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 138
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 1:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Total Savings: $935 million."

Besides giving us made up numbers, your "solution" doesn't even cover the $1.7 billion hole. Does that mean you'll be supporting higher taxes to cover the rest?
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 625
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 1:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Novine, do you actually posts or just babble responses?

The numbers are provided by Grandstand's Ultimate Hustle 2008 Budget, which I have already provided a link for.

And yes, I would support higher taxes under certain conditions, again read the posts above.

And only a "stupid motherfucker" would fall for the bucket of shit that Grandstand is trying to feed us.



(Message edited by Futurecity on September 15, 2007)
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Bulletmagnet
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Username: Bulletmagnet

Post Number: 876
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 9:01 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the up date PC. It is good to know that there is still a glimmer of hope for us working Schmoes, as few as we are becoming. Let me ask you: why can’t the Republicans in Lansing take a page from the Bush tax cut playbook (and toss out the tax spend page) and go with conservative principals? Or does this only apply in Washington?
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 141
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 7:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The numbers are provided by Grandstand's Ultimate Hustle 2008 Budget, which I have already provided a link for. "

No, you're just making up numbers. Where does the 12k number for benefits come from? Do I have to guess where you pulled that out from? Where's the rest of the revenue or cuts to cover the rest of the $1.7 billion? Quit trying to be so clever and work on getting the facts right.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 1695
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 7:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yikes! Too bad Detroit is in Michigan.
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Ray1936
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Username: Ray1936

Post Number: 1924
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 7:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the State of Michigan shut-down on October 1 should take place. Then declare the state insolvent and petition Congress to give the lower peninsula to Ohio, and the upper to Wisconsin. With both of those states doing well, what used to be Michigan will then be in for better days.

On second thought, since there is still bitterness over the Michigan-Ohio war, give the lower to Indiana.

On third thought, Indiana already has enough good basketball teams. Give the lower to Ontario.

On fourth thought, cancel that; Ontario just advised me they would turn it down.
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 3960
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 7:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Most of the UP's jobs are probably already in Wisconsin. The most prosperous part of WI is near Green Bay-Appleton, practically on the MI border. WI has been taking in MI's illegal aliens for some time now, doing the jobs that Wisconsinites won't do.
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Ray1936
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Username: Ray1936

Post Number: 1927
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 8:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey, eight bucks an hour and free cheesehead hats ain't that bad, LY.
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 626
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 9:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, Novine, you're just a dick head.
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Lefty2
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Username: Lefty2

Post Number: 129
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 10:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Anyone know if the cops had to be called on to arrest some of the Hookie playing politicians.
I guess some couldn't face up and vote on the tax hike because they were scared that they might not get reelected.
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 143
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 10:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

About what I expected from a clown like you.
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 627
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 12:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Come on, Novine, read the posts! Read the links! All the info is provided by the State and Grandstand herself! Don't be a dick head forever!
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Mcp001
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Username: Mcp001

Post Number: 3005
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 1:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Apparently, they're still at it (the House trying to jack our taxes...again).

This just speaks volumes about the Speaker being unable to control his own party members!
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Dougw
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Username: Dougw

Post Number: 1891
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 6:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As a centrist who usually votes Democratic, let's get some sort of compromise going already. Raise the income tax a modest amount to 4.4% or whatever, and make up the rest of the difference by freezing state employee benefit increases/wage increases for a year. Maybe cut higher education funding a smidge if needed.

Sorry Novine, but Futurecity is pretty much kicking your ass on this thread. If you're going to object to his figures, provide a link to some counter-evidence.

State employee benefits/wages does seem to be something of an untouchable sacred cow, I have to admit.
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 144
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 10:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do I get to make up my own numbers? That's what FC has done and hasn't provided any substantiation for them. I read the Mackinac Center report and it doesn't back up FC's numbers.
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 628
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Monday, September 17, 2007 - 12:20 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lesson #1 For Novine The Dick Head:

From my previous post:

"• Do not pay any increase in benefits for state bureaucrats scheduled for 2008 (from Grandstand's own budget and beyond the $27k current). Save: $147 million "

Taken directly from Grandstand's Budget Overview -Fiscal Year 2008, page A-7 (link provided in my post above, but I will provide it again http://www.michigan.gov/budget /0%2C1607%2C7-157--134602--%2C 00.html). See table titled "Fiscal Year 2008 General Fund". About 10 lines down you will see "Employee Benefit Cost Increases $147 Million".

More lessons for Novine The Dick Head to follow!

(Message edited by Futurecity on September 17, 2007)
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Lefty2
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Username: Lefty2

Post Number: 139
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Monday, September 17, 2007 - 12:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

to hell with the pigs at the trough!@
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Mcp001
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Username: Mcp001

Post Number: 3007
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, September 17, 2007 - 1:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How is getting my taxes raised a "compromise"?

As I see it, I'm just rewarding incompetence by giving those people who have screwed up big time, yet even money to play with.

There is no disincentive for them to not live within their means like everyone else.
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Umcs
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Username: Umcs

Post Number: 35
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Monday, September 17, 2007 - 11:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

FC,

Here is some general information regarding the Mackinac Center for Public Policy:

"The Mackinac Center for Public Policy is a nonprofit free-market research and educational organization located in Midland, Michigan….

The New York Times and other newspapers describe the Center as "a conservative think tank." The Raleigh News and Observer has reported that the Center is the largest state-wide conservative think tank in the country.

While the Mackinac Center does not disclose its financial backers, it receives money from a variety of individual donors, corporations, and foundations. The Earhart Foundation is the single largest foundation that gives to the Center. Some of this funding is specifically earmarked to provide money for the Center's divisions which focus on education and labor. The Walton Family Foundation and the Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation have also contributed to the Center. The Center also receives money from other foundations that is also earmarked for special uses, such as supporting the Labor and Education Resource Center or its Public Policy Science, Environment and Technology Initiative.

In practice, the Center is libertarian in ideology, and the Center advocates against governmental regulation and many taxes, including the Single Business Tax. Though the Center is non-partisan, it frequently agrees with (or is agreed with by) conservatives, much the same way the Michigan Prospect does with liberals. The Michigan Prospect and the Mackinac Center are frequent opponents on most issues." - Wikipedia



Here are the authors, their background, and some info on their "academic" sponsors:

"Michael D. LaFaive is director of fiscal policy for the Mackinac Center for Public Policy, a nonprofit research and educational institute headquartered in Midland, Michigan.

LaFaive is the author of dozens of articles, Op-Eds, and studies on fiscal policy issues such as unfunded federal mandates, privatization, free trade, and economic development. He has served as managing editor of Michigan Privatization Report since 1995 and frequently appears in major newspapers and on talk radio programs across Michigan.

LaFaive has undergraduate and graduate degrees in economics from Central Michigan University. Prior to joining the Mackinac Center, LaFaive worked for Michigan Gov. John Engler." - Mackinac Center Biography


"Brian Balfour is a policy analyst for the Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation in Washington, D.C." - Mackinac Center Biography

What is the Koch Charitable Foundation:

"“The Koch brothers also operate the Koch Family Foundations, a major source of funding for conservative and libertarian political causes in the United States, including think tanks such as the Cato Institute. (Their father helped found the John Birch Society, though neither brother is a member or supporter of the organization.) David's political activism also includes running as the vice presidential nominee of the United States Libertarian Party in 1980, when he and running mate Ed Clark finished fourth with 921,299 votes.

Koch also supports Americans for Prosperity, formed as a successor to Citizens for a Sound Economy. Rich Fink, a Koch executive vice president, is a member of the board of directors of Americans for Prosperity. Previously he served as president of Citizens for a Sound Economy.” - Wikipedia


More following on basic flaws in the supposed study they performed.
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Umcs
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Username: Umcs

Post Number: 36
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Monday, September 17, 2007 - 11:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As for quoted numbers, the benefits they arrive at are based on numbers provided by DLEG for a broad spectrum of classification of state employees versus private employees. However, in conducting a comparison to private sector employees, the authors actually conducted individual surveys of specific businesses.

I don't know specifically which businesses they contacted, other than the ones mentioned in their studies, but I examined private data available through Salary.com, careerbuilder, monster, and other private data collection agencies. Here are the averages (without bonuses) they provided for the Detroit region:

Physician (Family Practice) –
Benefit Median Amount % of Total
Base Salary $170,556.00
Social Security $8,115.36
401k / 403b $10,840.84
Disability $2,797.64
Healthcare $5,328.00
Pension $7,343.79
Time Off $22,865.29
Total $227,846.90

Food Services Manager -
Base salary $72,502
Social Security $5,634
401k/403b $4,566
Disability $1,178
Healthcare $5,328
Pension $3,093
Time off $9,631
Total $101,932

Receptionist:
Base Salary $30,475.74
Social Security $2,357.99
401k / 403b $1,911.05
Disability $493.17
Healthcare $5,328.00
Pension $1,294.58
Time Off $4,030.75
Total $45,891.29

Some positions included in the "study" are close. Others, as I previously indicated regarding professional positions, are off by a significant margin.

Part of the research problem again, is the extrapolation of data utilizing a statistical analysis performed by DLEG on the broad population as a whole versus their later independent, selective sampling. Additionally, their sample population for private sector employees was not statistically valid in any manner as they selected the companies to be interviewed.

That study is meaningless from a numbers standpoint.

I'm not defending an increase of $147 mil for state employees, but quoting numbers provided by a public policy think tank is simply misinformation.
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 629
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Monday, September 17, 2007 - 11:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Umcs-

The $147 Million increase for state employees CAME DIRECTLY FROM GRANDSTAND"S BUDGET OVERVIEW! THIS WAS A NUMBER CREATED AND PROVIDED BY THE STATE! NOT A THINK TANK!

THAT IS A REAL NUMBER PROVIDED BY THE STATE OF MICHIGAN!

The link I provided for that real number was a link to the STATE OF MICHIGAN WEBSITE!

Are you a total idiot? Or are you just trying to be a dick like Novine?
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Umcs
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Username: Umcs

Post Number: 37
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Monday, September 17, 2007 - 12:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow FC,

I'm talking about your precious "study" conducted by the Mackinac Center as being flawed. I'm not referring to the $147 mil. Let me quote myself here again:

"I'm not defending an increase of $147 mil for state employees." Clear enough or should I talk in all caps so you can see it?
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 630
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Monday, September 17, 2007 - 12:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Per Umsc:
"I'm not defending an increase of $147 mil for state employees, but quoting numbers provided by a public policy think tank is simply misinformation."

Your statement reads as though you are directly referring to the $147 million.
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 631
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Monday, September 17, 2007 - 12:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And also Umcs,

I Say Lame Attempt.

Who would question the State? Who would question Grandstand? Who would call her on her Ultimate Budget Hustle for 2008? Surely NOT you!

It is only private citizens and organizations that can call attention to Grandstand and her attempts to steal more of our take home pay.

You would choose to blindly and willingly gulp the Bucket of Shit that Grandstand is attempting to shove down our throats, rather than demand any accountability.
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Umcs
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Username: Umcs

Post Number: 38
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Monday, September 17, 2007 - 12:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your right FC, I can't argue with non-logic utilizing logic. Have a good life. I think there is a conspiracy theory thread somewhere around here you would feel comfortable in...
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 632
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Monday, September 17, 2007 - 4:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So according to you:

Only the State is logical.
All others use "non-logic.

Absurd.
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 145
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Monday, September 17, 2007 - 7:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know this is a complete waste of time but what the hey.

On my first point:

"No, you're just making up numbers. Where does the 12k number for benefits come from? Do I have to guess where you pulled that out from? Where's the rest of the revenue or cuts to cover the rest of the $1.7 billion? Quit trying to be so clever and work on getting the facts right."

No, you haven't provided any of those numbers, as Umcs pointed out. Your insults don't make it so.

The only number you did provide was the $147 million in employee benefit increases. To which I say "so what"? I know this may amaze you but costs go up just about every year, costs for health care, retirement, etc. all of which contribute to that total. Since many employees are covered by contracts, the state can't just slash those as you propose.
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 633
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Monday, September 17, 2007 - 7:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So Novine The Dick Head actually learned from Lesson #1! I knew you could!

Stay tuned for lesson #2!
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Novine
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Username: Novine

Post Number: 146
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Monday, September 17, 2007 - 11:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, I learned your a jerkoff who doesn't provide a straight answer to anything.
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Futurecity
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Username: Futurecity

Post Number: 634
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, September 18, 2007 - 12:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ooooo...

And you are adding exactly what to the discussion?

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