 
Falstaff
Member
Username: Falstaff
Post Number: 30
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 2:08 pm: |    |
Yup, hang onto the past.
That Michigan Central Depot is so charming and a real asset to the community. (Note the sarcasm)
Redevelop or die. It seems many suburban baseball fans have chosen death for Detroit.
Tear it down, every last brick.
Ignore the nostalgic ramblings of Ernie Harwell.
It's long gone! |
Histeric
Member
Username: Histeric
Post Number: 819
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 2:22 pm: | |
Do you have a learning/reading disability? This IS a REDEVELOPMENT project that provides three prime parcels for mixed use development anchored by a historic field and heritage center. Geez.
More like ignore the misinformed ramblings of the newbie Falstaff. |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 370
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 2:50 pm: | |
God/Allah/Brahma/Zeus/Dietie(s ) of Choice bless the Conservancy for giving it a shot.
I am no where near close enough to this deal to pronounce that I know anything, how anything is structured, etc. - I really attempt to not talk out of my behind, and speak on subjects I know - so all I can do is send positive energy that it succeeds for the people I know that are involved.
I have learned that whenever you try to do something great, whatever it is, there are always idiots and zealots who will be there. That is life, unfortunately. They should be ignored.
It would be a great pick-up for the neighborhood, city - and the region as a whole. This is truly a good "big picture" project. |
Falstaff
Member
Username: Falstaff
Post Number: 31
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 3:43 pm: | |
"This IS a REDEVELOPMENT project that provides three prime parcels for mixed use development anchored by a historic field and heritage center."
Who is the developer for your mixed use development?
Oh, you don't have a developer. What you have are ill conceived PROPOSALS that are driven by the wants and desires of the Conservancy, not market forces.
Have you ever developed a property? Not an easy proposition in a strong economy. This property sits in a less than desirable location for a mixed use development. By the way, please list all of the mixed use developments being built in southeast Michigan at the present time. How many are in Detroit? |
Sharmaal
Member
Username: Sharmaal
Post Number: 1215
Registered: 09-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 3:49 pm: | |
This is going to be rich... |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 371
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 4:05 pm: | |
Sounds like someone who's coming to the table with an agenda... you're right Sharmaal, this WILL be rich... |
Harpernottingham
Member
Username: Harpernottingham
Post Number: 259
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 4:11 pm: | |
Falstaff ... I'd give Histeric the benefit of the doubt for now. |
Falstaff
Member
Username: Falstaff
Post Number: 32
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 4:35 pm: | |
I'm not aware of a developer with:
1) An executed purchase agreement with the City of Detroit.
2) An approved site plan from the City of Detroit.
Without that, all you have is talk. If there is such a developer, please name that developer and I'll go away.
Geez
(Message edited by Falstaff on September 12, 2007) |
Harpernottingham
Member
Username: Harpernottingham
Post Number: 260
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 5:15 pm: | |
I believe the developer(s) will be named when the time is right. This is not merely wishful thinking; it's an informed belief. All I can say is to stay tuned. |
E_hemingway
Member
Username: E_hemingway
Post Number: 1324
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 5:21 pm: | |
The most encouraging thing from this latest episode is how many different people/groups are on the same page right now. I'm looking forward to seeing how this progresses now that the city/various Corktown parties/Harwell and other city institutions like the Kronk are on board. |
Falstaff
Member
Username: Falstaff
Post Number: 33
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 6:01 pm: | |
So, there isn't a developer. Just talk. It is nothing more than wishful thinking until they sign on the dotted line.
Maybe we will see progress when the economy turns around. Anyone thinking a large scale mixed use project will soon be developed in Detroit is engaged in wishful thinking.
There are about four developers in the United States that do these kind of developments (quality projects attracting high end retail). None of them will consider a project in the midwest at this point.
The time will be right to redevelop that property when:
1) The economy improves
2) The site has been cleared and made development ready
Tear it down, every last brick
It's long gone! |
Dabirch
Member
Username: Dabirch
Post Number: 2396
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 6:08 pm: | |
Falstaff - are you related to Trainman? |
Mdoyle
Member
Username: Mdoyle
Post Number: 199
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 6:17 pm: | |
Falstaff- yet another useful member to the community (note the sarcasm) |
Falstaff
Member
Username: Falstaff
Post Number: 34
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 6:22 pm: | |
Why so angry? Were you planning on running the bases at the new mix used development?
It's long gone! |
Jelk
Member
Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4592
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 6:36 pm: | |
Falstaff says they should tear it down and then he complains the city doesn't have developers for the parcels surrounding the field? Pick an argument. It sounds to me like you are just a bitter and not-very-bright little person. |
Falstaff
Member
Username: Falstaff
Post Number: 35
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 10:51 pm: | |
Follow the bouncing ball.
My argument is that the entire site needs to be demolished and returned restored to a vacant, development ready site. It could be split in any way needed for proper development.
It doesn't appear that most of the posters here understand development or care about the highest and best use for that land.
Attack me when you can't defend your position. That stadium needs to come down.
It's long gone. |
Jmarx
Member
Username: Jmarx
Post Number: 26
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 14, 2007 - 4:04 pm: | |
I think part of the problem with this debate is that while people have strong feelings pro/against TS demolition, the common arguments made on either side each have fairly logical counter-arguments... For example,
PRO STADIUM DEMOLITION people would say:
1. It is a chance to move on, one less abandoned eye-sore.
2. Help the surrounding community. Corktown will not rebound until the stadium is taken down. To start with, the empty lots around the stadium will just sit until the stadium is taken down.
(Counter-argument to #1 above): But why rush? Lots of neighborhoods have abandoned houses/buildings/warehouses... why isolate this one? For the amount of money to demo it, you could secure it (brick-up entrances) and then spend the balance of the demo money taking down abandoned houses, which pose much more danger to local communities than TS. And by securing it, you are simply holding it until a real development (no matter what it is) is in place. Why would a city with no money pay to demo a historic structure to potentially create nothing?
(Counter-argument to #2 above): Knocking down one big building is not going to turn Corktown into a vital city neighborhood like you'd find in Boston or Chicago. Nothing against Corktown, but lots of areas of Detroit have abandoned eyesores. (Corktown does also have the train station) And as Corktown rebounds (which it will), those empty lots around the stadium (and the stadium itself) will gain re-development.
And PRO KEEPING STADIUM people would say:
1. Why destroy a historic landmark when there is no firm plan for the property? Once it's gone, it's gone...no need to rush!
2. If it can be preserved, how cool would it be to have a 100+ year old baseball stadium structure to take your kids/grandkids to 50 years from now?
(Counter-argument to #1 above): Well we aren't going to use it anymore for baseball. Period. Let go. The Tigers will never play there again (not even for a benefit ballgame), so what are we keeping it for? It might be sad, the end of an era, etc, etc, but you have to let go. Shed a tear then move on.
(Counter-argument to #2 above): Yeah that's real neat, but realistically who will pay for this, it hinders progress, and I doubt those for this idea would go visit TS regularly (or even care much about it) if it wasn't in jeopardy of being demolished. I'd bet 75% of those shouting 'keep history' probably have never even been to the Detroit Historical Museum.
Now I don’t necessarily agree with everything I wrote above, but to me it's fascinating how people think their point of view on this topic is so strong when this discussion seems to have equally logical views on all sides. Anyway, just my thoughts... And since I put arguments for both sides, I'm sure I'll get ripped apart from every direction on this one… <grin> |
Drm
Member
Username: Drm
Post Number: 1141
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 14, 2007 - 6:47 pm: | |
quote:But why rush? Who's rushing? The last game was 8 years ago this month.
quote:Lots of neighborhoods have abandoned houses/buildings/warehouses... Lots of neighborhoods are not 1 mile from downtown, lots of neighborhoods are not improving despite the presence of eyesores, lots of neighborhoods don't sit adjacent to major freeway infrastructure. All neighborhoods are not created equal.
quote:For the amount of money to demo it, I don't think anyone knows what the net cost of demo will be at this point.
quote:you could secure it (brick-up entrances) Yep, that's worked real well with other buildings. People will get in if they want to.
quote:And by securing it, you are simply holding it until a real development (no matter what it is) is in place. The neighborhood isn't satisfied with a development "no matter what it is." The stakeholders favor the current plan.
quote:Why would a city with no money pay to demo a historic structure to potentially create nothing? Why would a city with no money pay to secure a structure to potentially create nothing? Besides, something is being created - a baseball field, greenspace and the opportunity for the neighborhood to look towards the future, rather than being shackled to some peoples' rosy-colored memories of the past. Even if nothing else is ever done, that's an improvement over the current situation.
quote:Knocking down one big building is not going to turn Corktown into a vital city neighborhood like you'd find in Boston or Chicago. No one ever claimed that. What has been claimed is that the empty lots will sit empty as long as it costs the owners next to nothing to keep them empty and there is the potential for parking revenue from Tiger Stadium. And who wants to invest money next to an ugly, rusting hulk? I don't want to live or work next to an abandoned building.
quote:And as Corktown rebounds (which it will), those empty lots around the stadium (and the stadium itself) will gain re-development. Not if Corktown can't realize its potential because the stadium continues to project the image of a neighborhood in decline. |
Falstaff
Member
Username: Falstaff
Post Number: 36
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 7:56 am: | |
"But why rush?" LOL
This decaying pig is situated right on I-75 for the world to see. At least it makes the Grey Line tour of the city easier:
"To your right is this ruin, to your left is that ruin. Next to that is another ruin. It's like Pompie without the Mount Vesuvius."
Tear it down, every last brick.
It's long gone!" |
Xd_brklyn
Member
Username: Xd_brklyn
Post Number: 310
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 11:17 am: | |
From my understanding, there are no other arguments now. It's the Conservancy plan or nothing. |
Falstaff
Member
Username: Falstaff
Post Number: 38
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 11:22 am: | |
That is a comforting thought.
The Conservancy is the final distillation of truth and knowledge.
All hail our suburban overlords. We trust in your sense of noblesse oblige.
Tear it down, every last brick.
It's long gone! |
Eric
Member
Username: Eric
Post Number: 924
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 12:48 pm: | |
Suburban overlords? The Conservancy was created by Greater Corktown Development Corp which is anything but suburban. |
Jelk
Member
Username: Jelk
Post Number: 4596
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 15, 2007 - 5:30 pm: | |
I think most of the Conservancy Board of Directors are Detroit residents. |
Erikd
Member
Username: Erikd
Post Number: 895
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 6:04 am: | |
quote:My argument is that the entire site needs to be demolished and returned restored to a vacant, development ready site. It could be split in any way needed for proper development.
It doesn't appear that most of the posters here understand development or care about the highest and best use for that land.
Attack me when you can't defend your position. That stadium needs to come down.
This decaying pig is situated right on I-75 for the world to see. At least it makes the Grey Line tour of the city easier:
"To your right is this ruin, to your left is that ruin. Next to that is another ruin. It's like Pompie without the Mount Vesuvius."
Tear it down, every last brick.
Falstaff,
Why are you so adamant about tearing down Tiger Stadium for a vacant lot?
There are a few high-profile downtown buildings that have been vacant far longer than Tiger Stadium.
The Book Cadillac and the Fort Shelby both sat vacant for over twenty years, and look what happened to them...
If Falstaff had his way, we would have torn down those "decaying pigs", and Detroit would have two more vacant lots instead of two beautiful classic buildings renovated into upscale residential-hotel usage. |
Falstaff
Member
Username: Falstaff
Post Number: 39
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 8:29 am: | |
Name one, just one, developer wanting to invest in the type of project proposed for the stadium site.
Oh, for this discussion to be based in reality, this developer must have a history of building these types of projects, cash in the bank or one hell of a credit rating, and at least on major tenant ready to go.
I hope the very best for the Book Cadillac and Fort Shelby development. I hope they don't fail because of the borderline economic depression we are caught in.
Decaying pigs (stadium, train depot) send the worst possible message about the city. Better to have vacant fields and let someone imagine their vision for a site rather than having to superimpose their vision over the one of someone long dead (all the while calculating demolition costs)
Tear it down, every last brick.
It's long gone! |
Southen
Member
Username: Southen
Post Number: 282
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 9:33 am: | |
Falstaff: What exactly is your development background? Youre taking the stance of someone 'in the know' when it comes to stuff like this, so im curious what qualifications you have. |
Falstaff
Member
Username: Falstaff
Post Number: 40
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 9:40 am: | |
I've worked as a city planner and (at another time) for major developers. I've seen both sides of the development coin for many years.
I think the "Field of Dreams" development approach is silly and destructive to the future of Detroit.
I've also had to deal with "concerned residents" from both a public and private perspective. I've grown very weary of a vocal minority slowing down real progress. I've always thought those people need to put their money where their mouth is and buy the property in question. That never happens.
(Message edited by Falstaff on September 16, 2007) |
Southen
Member
Username: Southen
Post Number: 284
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 9:47 am: | |
Why do you have such a huge problem with the city trying to find a way to make a development work? I dont think the city should have to always settle for bare minimum. Obviously this place is near and dear to many people and I appreciate the effort being put in to make this a good development for Corktown, as well as preserve the history. In the end If it comes to fruition it sends a big signal as to where Detroit can go. |
Falstaff
Member
Username: Falstaff
Post Number: 41
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 9:50 am: | |
From my previous post:
"I've always thought those people need to put their money where their mouth is and buy the property in question. That never happens."
If these people's hearts are so near and dear to the stadium - open up their collective checkbooks and build whatever the zoning ordinance allows. |
Southen
Member
Username: Southen
Post Number: 285
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 9:59 am: | |
Arent they in the process of raising money? I guess im having a hard time understanding why you dont want to give these people some time to pursue a worth while idea and just want to demo the building right away. |
Falstaff
Member
Username: Falstaff
Post Number: 42
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 10:12 am: | |
The last game was played there how many years ago? Just how many years are needed to prove it can't be done?
Tear it down, every last brick.
It's long gone! |
Southen
Member
Username: Southen
Post Number: 286
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 10:39 am: | |
To that I say....Book Cadillac.
Efforts are being made. Im guessing your not a preservationist. Corktown is a historic neighborhood and a big part of that history is what has happened at that corner for soo many years. Its worth waiting a little while to get it right. Im sorry if others dont feel that spot is better suited as a gravel lot until Home Depot can come in and put in a big box. |
Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon
Post Number: 10231
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 10:55 am: | |
I drove by the other day, and didn't see any bricks.
Just sayin'. |
Eric
Member
Username: Eric
Post Number: 927
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 1:21 pm: | |
quote:My argument is that the entire site needs to be demolished and returned restored to a vacant, development ready site. It could be split in any way needed for proper development
You seem to forgetting that under current the plan vast majority of the stadium will be demolished and marketed for development. Given the success other mixed use residential project in city I don't why you're adamant that no developer would be interested. You really think some condos and ground floor retail are a grossly unrealistic plan?
(Message edited by eric on September 16, 2007) |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5346
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 1:49 pm: | |
Oh great, now we have another jaded city worker who thinks historic preservation is a load of crap.
Apparently Orchestra Hall, Detroit Opera House (Capitol Theatre), Book Cadillac and the Fort Shelby should have been torn down decades ago... after all they would have been "long gone" by the time a use for them was found.
I'm not a Tiger Stadium fan, but I can see giving the folks a few more months to come up with a plan.
And now that Hudson's, the Statler, and the Monroe Block buildings are "long gone", look what pretty empty lots they make!
Even the rotting United Artists Building/Theatre may find a new life (hard to believe!), now that Mike Ilitch has gone to considerable expense to put a new roof over the office block and theatre.
Is it any wonder why Detroit City Government... who not only did the Madison-Lenox quick tear down, but also did the 150 year old Chene House razing (for a pancake palace yet!!) is probably still way up there on the National Trusts "Neanderthal List" of folks or entities that "just don't get it" when it comes to historic preservation, and the benefits it can provide.
Even the Book-Cadillac, which I do give the city credit for saving, 5 years ago DEGC George Jackson said "that eyesore would have been LONG GONE had these people (FOBC) not been such a constant source of trouble". And look where we are today with that soon to be polished gem.
If it wouldn't have been for those rotting old movie palaces, the idea of downtown Detroit as an entertainment and sports district may never have come to fruition.
So for a few more months, I believe in giving Ernie & Co. the benefit of the doubt and see if anything happens. If not, then rip it down... |
Falstaff
Member
Username: Falstaff
Post Number: 44
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 1:57 pm: | |
Have you ever been to the City of Detroit?
All of the projects you mentioned are DOWNTOWN, not isolated.
What would feed traffic to your holy baseball shrine? It sits in isolation from business/retail centers.
And I haven't been a planner for a municipality for many years.
Jaded? well ..... |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5348
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 16, 2007 - 2:09 pm: | |
Yes, I lived there for 30 year before moving to SCS. Still visit several times a week, and am a member of Preservation Wayne. Orchestra Hall is outside of Downtown.
I'm not a baseball fan, so the building is ugly to me. I just think a few more months won't hurt for those folks who think that they can make something happen. |
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