 
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 359
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 7:01 pm: |    |
*boo-hoo,I am black and poor so I am unable to figure things out*
That is not it at all. No one has said that. The statistics are there for anyone to see, somehow minorities are disproportionately affected by this. Is it because they are less likely to qualify for prime mortgages, or because they are steered toward subprime for unstated reasons, or because they are stupid whining crybabies who should know better? Well, I think the real answer is more likely to be a combination of factors that must be sorted out on an individual basis before making accusations.
(Message edited by gazhekwe on September 08, 2007) |
Accraghana
Member
Username: Accraghana
Post Number: 87
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 7:16 pm: | |
Look….the race card was played when some white folks decided to enslave Africans and the race card will remain in play until the vestiges are removed.
The truth be told, I had a sub prime mortgage. When we purchased our home 4 years ago, our first home, my wife and I income exceeded 100k, about 110k to be more accurate. My combined credit score was about 620 and my wife’s about 680. Of course, since I had the greater income and lesser credit score, they used my score to calculate our interest payment. We did the zero down and took out two mortgages. We purchased a home for 225K and homes were appreciating here in Minneapolis about 10% a year. Our broker told us that our rates would rise after two years but that we could refinance at that time for a lower rate, provided I got my credit score up. After the two-year period was up, our monthly payment went up by about 400 dollars. Our home was then worth about 265k. If we could not make the payments at that point, we could have sold our home and profited about 30k after the sale. So, what did we would profit anyway. However, we refinanced and our monthly payment turned out less than our original payment once we entered the prime market.
There are two things to note here. One, home appreciation rates were preventing looses, even if people could not afford the monthly payment once it readjusted to a higher interest arm. Secondly, interest rates have raised so when one refinances the base rates will be higher and if one has marginal credit it will be significantly higher. So in light of that, these were CHANGES IN THE MARKET that brought about the increased rates of foreclosures. For the vast majority of people, it did not have jack slit to do with not reading the fine print, but rather, changes in the market. Investor’s loose money from changing market conditions all the time in various speculative markets. These people were not irresponsible….for the most part. The market simply changed and those in the weakest position lost out.
If you went out and bought a new car and then had your hours cut at work and could not make the payment, you were not irresponsible…were you? Things changed that you did not expect to change. The same is true for those poor people who purchased homes. The housing market and interest rates changed. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 296
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 7:21 pm: | |
Gaz,
Some of the people here, so eager to point out stupidity as the lure for predatory lenders, can't draw inferences or recognize nuance/multiple causation. I find that ironic, since generally those are signs of intelligence. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 369
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 7:54 pm: | |
Quote "If you went out and bought a new car and then had your hours cut at work and could not make the payment, you were not irresponsible…were you?"
Yes, any employer with a half of a brain will tell his employees to not base their lifestyle on overtime pay. Many do it and get themselves in trouble. They used to call Canton "Overtime valley".
O'girl, "Recognize nuance/multiple causation"?
How about maybe the guy or his wife has a gambling addiction. Maybe he's just a bad manager of his finances. Maybe when the alleged predatory lender called he was in deep and on the verge of losing the house anyway? Just going on real-world situations. When someone starts waving the "they got me" flag, the caution lights start flashing.
The story was presented as though all was well, the sun always shined over his house and the lark song perpetual. Then that nasty lender called. He's probably beating himself up with "why did I answer that phone?" The realities of it are probably much different. Just going by real world happenings with folks. |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 360
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 8:42 pm: | |
OTOH, Sstashmoo, why does it all have to be thorns? Why couldn't they be honest, hardworking folks with no horrid habits?
People get offered all kinds of stupid scenarios, and some of them buy into them, and some do not. Several years back, before the dotcom bubble burst, financial planners were actually recommending people get second mortgages so they could invest their home equity in the stock market. It couldn't lose, they said, the market is looking better every month. Why should that equity just sit there? Make it work for you. Well, I hate to think what happened to those people who did go for that program. Let's hope all their investments were rosy and didn't dive for the bilges. See, things happen that change investment strategies, even if you don't have any bad habits. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 297
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 8:52 pm: | |
Sst,
Just about anyone who bases newfound wealth from overtime is simply living beyond one's means, so is living on credit cards, but not a soul is calling a person in credit debt stupid because that's how the majority of Americans live.
There are; however, other reasons a person's hours are cut: teachers, nurses, law enforcement, etc. all face reductions to .8 or .7 (schools love to shuffle around decimal points). So there's some nuance for you. You're assuming hourly cuts based on overtime.
Yes, there might be more to that story. Maybe that man, like millions of others, was simply trying to pay off some debt and just plain got screwed. |
Accraghana
Member
Username: Accraghana
Post Number: 88
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 9:14 pm: | |
Thank you OakGirl....why this person ONLY chose to focus on the scenario of someone having their hours cut from overtime is obvious. What if a person has just purchased a car or home and loses their jobs all together? Were they being irresponsible too? When things change outside ones sphere of influence, such as market changes in real estate.....its NOT the fault of individuals when they become victims of market forces. |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 362
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 9:20 pm: | |
Yes, it's only irrational reliance on overtime and credit, and of course you are a drunk or an addict who can't pay the bills nohow, to boot. I guess there are no ordinary, hardworking minorities, who handle their bills and their credit like everybody else, huh?
One thing for sure, separating those who lost in this situation from yourselves has got to make you feel better, as you can see no way this would ever happen to you. Well, it could. Just wait for the right system to come crashing down. We've had one about every two years so far this decade. You might be next. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 374
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 9:31 pm: | |
Oh I agree, I don't know what this mans particular situation was/is. I was just throwing a different spin on it as everyone was throwing a check in the victim column. And in the manufacturing sector around here there is an unspoken guarantee of 40 hours for most jobs. Most shops won't work people below that. And expect them to stay anyway. Below that they are considered part time and they just let them go.
I can tell you this, Occupations throughout my adult life have given me cause to become involved with people and their personal dealings and often not by choice. That experience taught me that more often than not when someone is in trouble it was their own actions and poor choices that put them there.
Running up credit card debt is who's fault? |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 363
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 9:38 pm: | |
It happens, sst. I agree, we are a nation of charge-aholics. People will try to get a second mortgage to pay off that debt, and then what do they do, yep! Charge it right back up again. I have some friends (not minorities, BTW) who did just that. Bankruptcies abound, and guess what? It's not just minorities! But, these subprime mortgages do have a larger impact on minorities. So, there you go. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 298
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 9:41 pm: | |
Wait, Gaz, I'm on your side, and I have credit card debt! I was just trying to point out that many of us live beyond our paycheck, that doesn't necessarily turn into Sst's caricature.
I imagine there's always more to a story, especially since the article mentioned he took home equity. That equity could have been used to pay off some credit cards (I've done that) or to buy Christmas presents. I wanted to highlight that the family seems a normal American family. The fact they were pushed a sub-prime rate should be a crime. |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 364
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 9:52 pm: | |
Exactly. It is just more common, and accepted, to have some CC debt. |
3rdworldcity
Member
Username: 3rdworldcity
Post Number: 907
Registered: 01-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 10:08 pm: | |
Let's review the bidding. Maybe it's not the the "poor, stupid people" here who have been the most damaged.
Sure, a lot of people are in the process of losing (or have lost) their homes. That is very sad, obviously. However, those are the folks who never owned a home and were able to buy one w/ a sub-prime loan . Or, they had homes and and were able to take our their "equity" or more. They ended up with the homes and the money.
As anyone could predict, the s____hit the fan and they're losing their homes. But, they won't be making payments for 7 or 8 months during the foreclosure process, will rent for a year or two during which the bulk of sub-prime mortgages are yet to re-set, and then buy those homes back at substantially reduced prices. That's one scenario.
Who lost the money? Well, Bear Stearns, for one (among many), who had to invest $4 billion (never to be seen again) to prop up one of its hedge funds. The idiot "investors" (pension funds, high income investors, banks) chasing yield who bought the asset backed securities have lost billions, and will lose billions yet to come. Prudent homeowners now denied credit because of the debacle can't sell their homes and have much higher hurdles to cross to get loans of any kind are very damaged.
So as I see it, the "poor, stupid exploited homeowners" got homes and money going in. My guess is that many knew exactly what they were doing and willingly assumed the risk. Why assume they didn't? They have some hard times now but will recover over the not too distant future. Someone is going to buy the 1000's of vacant and soon-to-be-vacant foreclosed homes and a lots of them will be sold to people currently losing their current homes. Lenders are not going to let them sit there (been there, done that) and will get them back on the market w/ very creative financing.
Quicken by its own admission has a couple hundred million of non-marketable mortgages which they'll have to mark to market at losses of millions of Dan Gilbert's dollars. Countrywide laid off another 12,000 workers yesterday and has retreated to a deal w/ B of A which will eventually result in the loss of its independence. Probably 20 major lenders have gone out of business having incurred crippling losses.
Boo hoo for the rich stupid guys. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 375
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 10:16 pm: | |
Quote: "The fact they were pushed a sub-prime rate should be a crime."
I don't follow, why should it be a crime? If they have a legal product and they sold it legally.. Fliping the coin, He was probably forced into a sub-prime rate due to a low credit score. It was a higher risk loan. Had nothing to do with race. Had everything to do with not managing things prior. It would be nice if everyone could get the best rate all the time no matter what. But there wouldnt be much incentive to keep one's credit score up. Not that I agree with that whole system, but thats how it works.. They can't mandate higher rates simply based on race as you seem to be implying. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 299
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 10:38 pm: | |
"He was probably forced into a sub-prime rate due to a low credit score. It was a higher risk loan. Had nothing to do with race."
Technically, it's financial; in reality, race plays a part. Sst., you should read the thread from the beginning.
"Had everything to do with not managing things prior."
Once again, you know this man personally? Then stop extrapolating from your experience as a manager in Canton or wherever.
I said predatory lending ought to be a crime; I meant from an ethical consumer protection angle--the Lemon Law is another example of such a law, and race never entered my mind. It's a matter of treating people with respect and not as a credit score.
Of course, for such a Bill to even see the light of day, a legislator's family member would have to fall victim to a scheme. Unlikely to happen as most of them are wealthy. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 376
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 11:09 pm: | |
I think you'd have a hard time defining "Predatory lending". And then applying it to very many cases. If their doing something truly illegal, sure go after them. If they are just covering their arses, can't blame them for that.
If you were a shareholder of a mortgage outfit, would you want them handing money to whomever with no safeguards in place? |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 367
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 11:13 pm: | |
Repeating a post for you sstashmoo, since you seem to have missed it:
Predatory lending was the term coined to describe the effects of these subprime loans upon the people who took the bait, thinking they were finally getting a chance at home ownership. Things were predicted to get better and better through the nineties, so surely they would earn more and be able to continue paying the high interest loans. But, late fees, doubled up payments, and rising interest rates defeated them. ... |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 377
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 08, 2007 - 11:57 pm: | |
Quote: "I said predatory lending ought to be a crime; I meant from an ethical consumer protection angle--the Lemon Law is another example of such a law"
And should've never gotten passed. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 300
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 12:03 am: | |
Clearly, you work for Ford.
Seriously, it's the first, not most analogous, law that came to mind. Please don't change this to a car thread. Yawn. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 378
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 12:03 pm: | |
Nope, don't work for Ford. Nope, not a manager in Canton or "wherever". |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 308
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 12:11 pm: | |
I was joking about Ford; pardon the Canton assumption.
We passed a law a long time ago on bait/switch sales tactics; predatory lending is potentially much more harmful- we're talking someone's home, not a refrigerator, so why shouldn't consumers have legal protection? |
Kaptansolo
Member
Username: Kaptansolo
Post Number: 245
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 2:13 pm: | |
Good Afternoon people...how is everyone?
I was paged to this thread
thanks Oakmangirl
This is incredible.
Ok, first the stupid people who did not know what they were getting into.
Miss_cleo--boy o boy...I am prejudice...I hate players, I do not hate the game...I hate the player.
There is a such thing as "predatory lending" and don't think for one minute that the 2005 ending of bankruptcy laws as we know it is not something that lending institutions have been waiting on...and they have it now.
What this is all about...is slavery. This is not about black or white but "class".
There is always money to be made in poor communities because poor people always need something.
People are "stupid" about a great many things especially when it comes to fine print and in some cases even how the market works or WHO CONTROLS MONEY AND THE MARKET TOO.
Many of these people (and the same thing is going on here in New York City) really did not know what they were getting into. There is too much living on credit and overtime that goes on. This has become as American as Apple Pie...that does not make it right.
I do not feel that I have a right to play anyone just because they do not know any better. It may be legal...but that does not make it right.
I do not feel that because you do not know any better that you can continue to live that way. I mean you can, there is nothing illegal about not being informed but that does not make it right either.
The information is out here, you do have to do the leg work.
Now the banks
The banks look at "stupid people" as "food". You know the, "it ain't my fault you did not know any better".
Well...actually it is...the "lies" you tell are meant to mislead. The longer people are depressed the more in some cases they will think and make a dumb decision because after a while the options become, Be smart and "live" with nothing or be "stupid" and become our slave.
I can be smart and not make the mistakes of the sub-prime mortgage(because it is a set-up)unless you are making enough money to keep you insulated through a disaster.
or
I can be stupid because I think I am an American and I thought this was what the dream was all about. Wow! I finally got a chance to own a home. I work everyday and that is what it takes. Wrong!!!
As Accraghana pointed out, banks do not make money on responsible people who pay their bills on time. More accurately, they make enough to operate, but they make profits on those who will get snared in debt.
It matters how much money you make before you do anything in this country.
It does not matter whether you work everyday...it matters how much money you make.
It matters how much money you make before you have children.
It matters how much money you make before you buy a home. Stop thinking that "hey, at least I got it"
It matters that you are responsible and exercise discipline when it comes to bills.
No you are not better than anyone else because you are an American.
You must think before you act...I mean this...YOU MUST THINK BEFORE YOU ACT.
You must do research work and study what you are signing.
If they do not have time to wait on you to read the lengthy ass contract their lawyers took much time to prepare...then fuck their loan.
You say, "but kaptan, I will never have anything if I do that." "Life is not that hard and not that serious and you are crazy for thinking that way." It is that hard and it is that serious. You will be better off waiting until you know what lending institutions are doing and how the market works. You are way behind in information...it is going to take time...start now. Do not buy anything until you have the info.
Information is power!
Get your butt online...read. Compare information...ask questions.
Go to the library, find out what the hell is going on.
It would be nice if the people like Miss_Cleo who think that if you are stupid then you should be played did not exist...It would be nice...but they are not going anywhere and they are not going to stop the game.
People like her look at you as "food" to be eaten because she was lucky enough to come from enough insulation that she may never experience what it is like to not know or not have resources like family members who have knowledge about loans.
As far as she is concerned you are from a different class than she is and it is not her fault and you are where you are suppose to be.
Steal the information, it is power.
I have said that the lazy bitch out there in New York Harbor is just that...a lazy bitch.
Stop believing that there is major compassion for you if you do not know any better because this is America.
You need to start thinking that your situation is worse than those (foreigners) you think you are better than because you were born here. America is a land of opportunity based on it's resource of the poor working class that does not "get it".
Be smart and informed, not clueless and ignorant. Will it cause you some stress...Yep.
Will it increase your gray hair...probably.
Will it keep you from being a slave...damn right.
(Message edited by Kaptansolo on September 09, 2007) |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 379
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 2:46 pm: | |
More laws won't fix this.
Mortgage companies were careless with their investors' money, it will fix itself. |
Miss_cleo
Member
Username: Miss_cleo
Post Number: 867
Registered: 05-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 2:55 pm: | |
The information is out here, you do have to do the leg work.
----------------------------
uh, yeah, thats exactly what I said.
Paged to this thread, ROTFLMAO! Here comes the calvery, who are convinced that if they gang up on people, their way is right. omg!
If you took the time to read what I wrote, you would see that we said the same thing. I do believe that some banks are predatory and that you the consumer are in the drivers seat as far as getting accurate information on what you are signing. Its not about race. |
Kaptansolo
Member
Username: Kaptansolo
Post Number: 250
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 3:34 pm: | |
Miss_Cleo your quote
"You guys are just too much! Why cant it be that every one suckered in by these too good to be true loan were, well, suckers? All of them. regardless of race. Why does race matter? They were all equally stupid!"
Perhaps I got the wrong idea...Excuse me. I re-read your post..you were addressing the "race" issue here?
I thought you were saying that they were suckers and they were played like suckers are often played and that it is ok for them to get played because they are stupid.
I beg your pardon. |
Kaptansolo
Member
Username: Kaptansolo
Post Number: 251
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 3:47 pm: | |
By the way, it was meant as sarcasm. Ganging up on people does not make us right or allow us to "win".
I was paged...omg...omg back at cha...
I think we all pay attention to one another's comments on different threads and though our identities are anonymous we do form profiles of ourselves and our way of thinking.
There are forumers who we all share similar ideas with...there is some form of comradery. |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1645
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 4:55 pm: | |
Not a race issue. If sub prime is called a race issue than so should credit card companies preying on college students. Its the same situation as sub prime. |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 387
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 5:38 pm: | |
It is a race issue because if there is statistically shown to be disparate impact, more heavily affecting minorities. |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1652
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 5:44 pm: | |
The question then is, why does it more heavily impact minorities? I guess most on here are leaning toward the idea that they are easier to prey on... |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 391
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 6:01 pm: | |
It's a mixed bag. Minorities have less of a credit history as a group than the majority group does. When viewed as part of a group rather than as individuals, they may already be starting with one foot in the hole. That is one theory as to why minorities who might otherwise qualify for prime loans would get steered to subprime ones.
Another reason could be just plain poor credit history for the individual, which would make them less likely to qualify for prime loans. This might possibly indicate some are not as sophisticated about managing their money or understanding the details about loans.
I had a couple come to my office once and ask me if they had to keep paying on a sofa they bought, because it was marked $300, and their payments totalled $300. They just didn't understand interest, and didn't understand the paper they had signed. It happens. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 315
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 6:03 pm: | |
No, CP, because they are disproportionately poor, preyed upon, it's related to race for that reason. Then it becomes a vicious cycle. Wow, how many times and different ways this was already said...
Cleo, I don't need a cavalry; I knew this would interest Kaptansolo, and I enjoy his input. Nothing more to it; you go right on with your conspiracy theory. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 380
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 6:50 pm: | |
O'Girl,
You are the one with the conspiracy theory. Do you really think mortgage companies and businesses in general target minorities? Do you think they discuss it during meetings or write it into their procedures? This whole notion that any business would practice in this manner is preposterous. If they do as you're suggesting, what do the many minorities that work there have to say about it?
Reality interjection: If someone so much as breathed this idea, the media would be ripping the roof off.
You're taking the end result and placing the blame where it fits your viewpoint best. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 317
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 7:01 pm: | |
Ok then. I was referring to something Cleo said about me and another forumer.
Keep right on with the uninformed assumptions and aimless ranting; it's entertaining at best. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 381
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 7:28 pm: | |
It's more entertaining when you make these claims and when questioned you respond with an AOLesque snarky comment.
You made the claim that minorities are being preyed upon or taken advantage of about 50 times. Just curious why you think that is. Other than simply basing it on statistics that may or may not mean anything. |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 392
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 7:32 pm: | |
I would say it is systemic, rather than deliberate. That is where the disparate impact comes in, as the adverse circumstances happen more to those who are not yet fully accepted in the structures of the systems. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 319
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 7:39 pm: | |
Sst. I'm not going to respond; there's no point. I would just suggest you re-read all that Gaz has posted; she's really articulated what I've tried to say 51 times now. |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1654
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 8:10 pm: | |
"You made the claim that minorities are being preyed upon or taken advantage of about 50 times. Just curious why you think that is. Other than simply basing it on statistics that may or may not mean anything."
Minorities are simply easy prey I guess "because they are disproportionately poor." |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 397
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 8:20 pm: | |
Repeating this for good measure:
I would say it is systemic, rather than deliberate. That is where the disparate impact comes in, as the adverse circumstances happen more to those who are not yet fully accepted in the structures of the systems. |
Kaptansolo
Member
Username: Kaptansolo
Post Number: 253
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 9:43 pm: | |
"I would say it is systemic, rather than deliberate. That is where the disparate impact comes in, as the adverse circumstances happen more to those who are not yet fully accepted in the structures of the systems."
I agree Gaz.
During the depression, the rich or I should say the elite were insulated from the depression. If you are already on the fringe of the structures that exist...one little vibration and you fall into an abyss.
Not a good situation for minorities who are usually on the fringes of society.
It is systematic. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 322
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 09, 2007 - 10:09 pm: | |
Right, it is systemic and becomes a vicious circle. A consumer takes on a subprime loan, feels like he or he has achieved by making an investment (albeit an unwise one), then ends up where started or more likely worse. How does this help a person get ahead financially or in reaching personal goals or dreams?
The systemic nature, while not deliberate, of predatory lending only serves to maintain the status quo; that is, to preserve places of power for those who already have it in society. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1585
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 11:06 am: | |
"Right, it is systemic and becomes a vicious circle."
I mean, does it really have to be said? It's amazing how hard it is for people to grasp the concept of institutionalized racism. But I guess if everyone "got it" then it wouldn't be such an issue...
Kudos to you all who have the patience for these long drawn out racial discussions. I'm ready for the development announcements (real or fantasy) to start rolling around again. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 323
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 12:44 pm: | |
D,
I'm weary of it too; apparently you have to (metaphorically) use a bat to drive the point home. I've given up though realizing people, always the same ones, see/read only what fits their narrow little purview. It's sad.
Agreed, I'm ready for some lighter fare! |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 2247
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 12:48 pm: | |
Get a fixed rate and make sure you can make your mortgage payment in one week's pay. Otherwise you are in over your head and shouldn't be buying a house. Good day! |
Gravitymachine
Member
Username: Gravitymachine
Post Number: 1806
Registered: 05-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 1:18 pm: | |
i think this is hillarious juxtaposed with everyone's yearning for rock financial/quicken to move downtown |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 383
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 1:36 pm: | |
It's amazing how articulate people become when they're wrong.
They take one statistic and base a whole fantastic pandemic upon it.
It's called "Coincidence"
The common theme here seems to be if you sell something to someone it's your responsibility to make sure they can afford it and they will be better off years down the road no matter what. And sales people are predators. No surprise. Of course they are predators. They wouldn't be a very good sales person if they weren't. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1592
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 1:42 pm: | |
The common theme here seems to be if you sell something to someone it's your responsibility to make sure they can afford it
Well, that's the whole reasoning behind a credit check, no? |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 424
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 1:56 pm: | |
sst, it's settled law, originally applied under Title VII in Griggs vs Duke Power Co., 401 U.S. 424 (1971), and since broadened to show similar impact in other kinds of cases. |
_sj_
Member
Username: _sj_
Post Number: 2094
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 2:19 pm: | |
What does this have to do with color, nothing. Just people who were suckered into believing they could afford more than they could. Everyone makes mistakes, this is just a costly one. |
Umcs
Member
Username: Umcs
Post Number: 23
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 2:32 pm: | |
This isn't an example of racism. This is an example of blatant speculation on a perceived "investment." The problem is that home prices increased steadily during the late 90's and early to mid 2000's. Was that increase in price based upon any "real" demand?
No. It was based upon an artificial inflation in the potential market by using these sub-prime and mortgage-backed securities. Suddenly, otherwise ineligible persons could become homeowners, regardless of skin color.
Prices continue to spiral up without any rational thought because it is... speculative. Everyone from consumers, builders, renters, banks, investors, and the Fed itself was speculating. Many people bought in and some didn't.
The problem in Detroit though, is that foreclosures are zeroing in on average consumers caught in the speculative bubble and subsequent bust rather than some quasi-investor who wanted a get-rich-quick opportunity.
I feel sorry for the people losing their homes. I don't think they were stupid, uninformed, or somehow greedy. They wanted a home and they bought at the worst possible time in the worst circumstances.
If you want to look at the real culprit in this mess, look at the security holders and the mortgage bankers who pooled these loans together with false statements and fraudulent representations of their borrowers credit-worthiness and the perceived "low" rate of default on mortgages. |
Belleislerunner
Member
Username: Belleislerunner
Post Number: 347
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 2:34 pm: | |
What's it really like on the home front?
It seems that housing is on the tip of everyone's tongue.
Michigan's rising foreclosure rates are having spinoff effects everywhere. Houses sitting on the market for months, mortgages held up, owners taking losses on their homes to get out from under them.
Crain's wants to know what you've seen.
Do you know someone with a mortgage horror story? Is your neighbor's home vacant? Are you trying (and struggling) to sell?
And if you have a story that contradicts the prevailing wisdom, we'd like to hear about that, too. If you sold a home quickly or made a nice profit, tell us about it.
Send your stories and comments to cdbsurvey@crain.com. |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 384
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 2:56 pm: | |
Quote: "I feel sorry for the people losing their homes. I don't think they were stupid, uninformed, or somehow greedy. They wanted a home and they bought at the worst possible time in the worst circumstances."
Well said. And to say any one group was targeted is just nonsense. Everybody is feeling the effects of the economy. The prepared, somewhat, the unprepared, most definitely. |
Gazhekwe
Member
Username: Gazhekwe
Post Number: 431
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 3:17 pm: | |
No one is saying any group is targeted. We are saying there is a disparate impact, which is the result, not the means. |
Umcs
Member
Username: Umcs
Post Number: 25
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 3:39 pm: | |
Disparate impact is a misnomer Gaz.
How does one measure the impact? Is it in terms of the sheer number of persons affected? Total real dollars lost per person/entity? Percentage of net wealth lost?
How you perform the measurement of impact leads to the conclusion of disparate impact. I'm reminded of arguments advancing disparate impact to that of a number of policies enunciated by the Mackinac Policy Center.
For instance, according to the Center, Right-to-Work states have enjoyed higher rates of employment and Gross State Product than non-Right-to-Work states. Therefore, Right-to-Work means the creation of more jobs and better economic circumstances. The correlation can't be tied up. It's conjecture based on an incomplete analysis of all circumstances and factors.
A more obvious example is the following:
Drowning deaths are significantly higher during the summer months.
Ice cream consumption per person peaks during the summer months.
Therefore, ice cream consumption causes drowning deaths.
It's silly arguing semantics about a legal term like disparate impact when we all basically know that the economically less fortunate suffer disproportionately in terms of quality of living and the ability to weather circumstances when economic conditions worsen.
It's silly to assume that a statistic such as the one quoted can be directly correlated with racism present in an industry that otherwise, took advantage of hundreds of thousands of people. Money has no color other than green.
Keep in mind though, I'm not saying that racism does not exist or that some level of institutional prejudice is built into certain aspects of society. |
Lmr
Member
Username: Lmr
Post Number: 98
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 4:05 pm: | |
There was an interesting story in the St. Paul Pioneer Press a few months ago about foreclosures due to interest rate reset. One of the cases was a young (30-ish) black woman who said that when she went to her closing (on the house now being foreclosed due to a huge interest rate reset), the realtor and the mortgage broker were both black females so she trusted them completely.
That was the most amazing statement I had ever heard. At the closing for our current house both the realtor, closer, and mortgage rep were all white females (same as myself) and never for one minute did I think those vultures weren't out to get everything they could from me. Maybe the difference in thinking is because I'm 50 instead of 30? |
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