Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 158 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 9:02 pm: | |
Ravine, Why don't you just move? Wait...homeless people are just about everywhere especially where it's warm. You need to do some research first: Top Ten List of Towns Where You're Least Likely to be Hassled for Money by a Bearded, Aggressive Addict I'm not against anyone's right to feel annoyed or afraid, but I take issue with the assumptions made out of ignorance that each street person is an addict or chooses to beg. Really, the whole situation is more about you than the panhandler. What do your attitudes say about you as a person? Do a little soul-searching. As for me, I do believe my ass hurts. |
Ravine Member Username: Ravine
Post Number: 1232 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 9:18 pm: | |
Not everything warrants such profound self-examination. As for moving, why should I move? Does being a Detroiter require complete acceptance of everything within the city limits? If I don't love everything about it, I should leave it? |
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 159 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 10:10 pm: | |
"You shouldn't bash on Plymouth or Northville. It shows YOUR bias as you don't have a clue to the diversity here. We have some of every type, thank you." I work in one of those bedroom communities, and I mainly see one social class walking around the streets there. From what I see M-F, it's a fairly homogeneous group; maybe it's one big melting pot over the weekend. "They did have the same opportunities that I had, and they chose to be beggars. Period." Here's we run into a problem and now maybe you'll see my point. I generalized about the suburbs to elucidate for you just how much you were generalizing about panhandlers. Not surprised it didn't work. How can you possibly tell me I'm painting with too broad a stroke then make, in all seriousness, the assertion above. How dare any of us assume that everyone we meet had/has the same opportunities as we do? This is one of the biggest fallacies around; I don't buy into victim mentality, but some people have been kicked around so much they cave, others lose their livelihood and their dignity with it, some can't shake an addiction. Pity the people who unlike you have weaknesses or flaws, and don't hide them. I shudder to think of how "perfect" this world would be if we all chose to live like middle-class and nouveau-riche people who succeed (using that term loosely) because they suppress their issues rather than let loose. Let's see, we end up with functioning alcoholics, child molesters, cutters, bulimics, anorexics, narcissists...I guess there is diversity beyond the city after all. |
Lukabottle Member Username: Lukabottle
Post Number: 90 Registered: 12-2004
| Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 10:16 pm: | |
I had a funny experience when I used to help out at a coffee house in Pontiac. I met two homeless men on two different occasions that were picked up in Rochester Hills by police and left in Pontiac. I wonder how much if any of that goes on in Detroit. |
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 160 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 10:22 pm: | |
Luka, How the hell could that happen? It's funny in a sick, ironic, telling sort of way. I wonder if Roch Hills has to pay for that somehow? Like donut runs for the Pontiac cops- sorry, I couldn't resist the urge to make a stereotype. |
Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors
Post Number: 558 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 10:43 pm: | |
http://www.handetroit.org/ |
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 161 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 11:08 pm: | |
Urban, Thank you. I'm going to add for the benefit of all who think ALL the homeless are addicts and homeless because of it: The 2006 United States Conference of Mayors “Hunger and Homelessness Survey” reports that approximately 26% of the homeless population is dealing with issues of substance abuse. Studies that report substantially higher numbers often over-represent long-term shelter users and single men, and use lifetime rather than current measures of addiction. Another important aspect to consider is that many addiction issues arise while people are experiencing homelessness, rather than causing them to become homeless. http://www.nationalhomeless.or g/publications/facts.html |
Dustin89 Member Username: Dustin89
Post Number: 121 Registered: 07-2006
| Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 11:11 pm: | |
Lukabottle...I've discussed this issue at length with a lot of people, but I've never gone as far as to speculate that Pontiac is a literal dumping ground for homeless people. It is, in many ways, Oakland County's dumping ground for unpleasant things. I had never heard an actual account of other police departments dumping homeless people in Pontiac. Although I had assumed this happened, it outrages me to hear of an actual incident. |
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk
Post Number: 886 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 3:30 am: | |
Can I just ask you a question?" I say sure, what's up? "Do you know what the best nation in the world is?" What is it? "Donation!!!" We start laughing. "Wait, but do you know the best city in the world?" What city? "Generosity!!!" That guy is an old favorite. Always around Woodward. You have to give him this: He tries a lot harder than those who just stand there shaking a cup. |
Ravine Member Username: Ravine
Post Number: 1233 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 5:56 am: | |
Now see, that guy isn't just aggressively charging up on folks. His routine actually almost counts as a sort of entertainment. Big difference. I'll bet he makes out WAY better than the rest. |
Plymouthres Member Username: Plymouthres
Post Number: 158 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 11:14 am: | |
Oakmangirl- Thanks for the lecture on hypocrisy. I appreciate the enlightenment, but I beg to differ entirely. Your very first statement in reply to bashing Plymouth/Northville shows your complete ignorance to the fact that YOU didn't catch what I was saying! I really don't think that you could possibly be more condescending, and I'm glad that you feel that your M-F experiences qualify you to be some kind of societal genius! Living in the Plymouth/Canton community, our high schools combined (all three) have about 6,000-7,000 kids attending. To say that you cannot see the diversity attending there would be turning a blind eye to reality. The kids well represent the cross section of the community. The second statement that you made in reply to opportunities is where the wheels really fall off the cart for you. By the way, you weren't generalizing in your first statement:"Do we want The D instead to be a sanitized, planned community much like Celebration, FL or a Stepford Village? We have Plymouth and Northville for that, I thought." I believe that is a bit more than a generalization. Every one of us, Black, White, Latino, Native American, Asian, etc., has the same opportunity in the fact that we have the choice to do something to be a solution to the problem or just sit back and be an addition to the problem. I shudder to think that people see it like you do-it simply is not that way. You enable people to be this way with your thinking, and people thinking like you are the reason that they exist. Period. You sound like my 26 year old daughter-she always wants to save the world as well. What do you know of my situation or the things that I went through when I was born and growing up? How do you know any of the addictions that I have overcome, how many hurdles I've vaulted in my race, or how many times I've given one of the panhandlers a handout or hooked them up with a night at one of the local rescue missions? Weaknesses or flaws-give me a break! We all have had our crosses to bear, not just you. Perhaps you would also like to speculate on my personal life, too, based on your M-F experience in my "bedroom community"? I draw my experience from 47 years of living in and loving this great city. To say that panhandlers are to be understood and tolerated is just plain unfortunate, and illustrates how unrealistic you are on this topic. In my comments, I made no assumptions, only assertions. These assertions are based on many years of dealing with the panhandlers in Detroit and a few other major cities, too. Spare me the lectures in the future. Also, please add some ideas for solutions. We already know of the reasons that have allowed panhandlers and the homeless to propagate. We need to develope dialog to help fix the problem, not attack each other. That is the reason that Detroit never gets anything accomplished. There are too many people pissing on each other, and they are constantly stepping over dollars to pick up nickles. |
Texorama Member Username: Texorama
Post Number: 47 Registered: 12-2006
| Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 11:43 am: | |
I guess I really can't buy the "homeless are everywhere" argument. I've recently spent substantial amounts of time in the downtowns of Cleveland, Cincinnati, and St. Louis, all racially troubled cities that have experienced disinvestment in their central cores. Sure, there are homeless people in these places, and you can get panhandled aggressively. But in all of them there are generally safe zones around major entertainment and residential attractions, and the contrast to Detroit is immediately noticeable. The bottom line is thriving districts that provide jobs for people who live in the city. Basic quality-of-life policing in central districts would be the best move Detroit could make right now--there's pent-up demand for urban living in this area, but fear of being hassled by a psycho crackhead the minute you open your door is a big deterrent. |
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 165 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 12:31 pm: | |
"Also, please add some ideas for solutions. We already know of the reasons that have allowed panhandlers and the homeless to propagate. We need to develope dialog to help fix the problem, not attack each other. That is the reason that Detroit never gets anything accomplished." We actually agree on something! I would gladly offer ideas for solving homelessness, but the solutions are tied to the reasons we have it in the first place: lack of jobs at a livable wage, lack of affordable housing, domestic abuse, laissez-faire govt., false assumptions that the homeless "choose" their lifestyle. Too many others in power share that assumption, so I don't see how things will change until people learn to care about the wellbeing of others. Therein lies the crux of the issue. I agree we need to develop dialog but not when people can't see beyond ignorant stereotypes. Granted, neither one of us should generalize, so the following will be my final general observation on the issue. Census shows 84% and 92% of Canton and Plymouth are white, respectively. Median incomes 80-90K. Of course, that's because in those "diverse" communities people pull themselves up by their bootstraps or Uggs while panhandlers choose to beg? I don't buy it. If we really want to focus on solutions, we should be discussing economist Milton Friedman and NAIRU theory. |
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan
Post Number: 774 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 12:36 pm: | |
quote:Yeah, I think they add charm and romance to the city; being panhandled is like a gondola ride on the river. If you caught inferences, you'd see I meant that you're going to encounter homeless in any major urban area, so if you can't handle it, stay home where it's disease-free, but certainly still vulgar. Oakmangirl, you're completely clueless. As a former WSU student, I have more horror stories than I can count. -Multiple instances of homeless men looking at porn on the community access terminals in the UGL and masturbating. -A female student that I knew was studying alone in a room in Old Main and saw a homeless man with his pants down, he was leering at her and masturbating. -A student I know was CHOKED by a crazy homeless person at night while on campus. -Another female student was stuck by a homeless person who then proceeded to chase her. -An incident at the Purdy library where a woman studying on the fourth floor was stuck in the back of the head and knocked unconscious by a homeless person. -I witnessed a fight between two homeless people in the Purdy-Kresge library in which one threatened to wait outside and "stab" the other. And this is just the tip of the fucking iceberg. If you think that is "charming", then you need to get your head examined. One student I knew had the back window on his car busted out by a homeless person, because the homeless guy wanted the $2.00 worth of bottles and cans that were lying in the back. I saw homeless people walk into classrooms while a class was in progress so they could look for bottles and cans in the trash. And homeless people are guilty of quite a few break-ins on the WSU campus, read the monthly campus crime report. |
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 167 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 12:56 pm: | |
I've been a student at WSU when things were even less rosy than they are now, so ask before you call someone clueless. I've worked extensively around homeless people and have witnessed first hand what you describe. I've seen students of WSU exhibit some pretty rude behaviors too. Never said it was literally charming to be homeless or be accosted by panhandlers. I was using sarcasm. None of our experiences and observations gives us the right to assume that ALL or even most homeless people choose to live on the streets. |
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan
Post Number: 775 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 1:23 pm: | |
quote:None of our experiences and observations gives us the right to assume that ALL or even most homeless people choose to live on the streets. http://alcoholism.about.com/b/ a/132200.htm It's not bad luck, mental illness or deinstitutionalization that is causing a rise in the homeless population, but a rise in substance abuse, according to research by the Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis. Dr. Carol S. North says drug and alcohol abuse is not the only reason for homelessness, but a major contributor. Her research team found that almost 88 percent of alcohol-abusing homeless men and 84 percent of homeless women who abuse alcohol were diagnosed with an alcohol use disorder in the year before they became homeless. |
Goirish1966 Member Username: Goirish1966
Post Number: 22 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 1:27 pm: | |
i attended last night's (this morning's) tiger game. it started at 11:05 pm and ended at 3:30 am. some of the panhandlers had the patience to wait out the end of the storm and the game and were "on duty" asking us to "have a heart" at 3:30 am as we left comerica park. |
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 169 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 1:36 pm: | |
I'd have to see her actual study before I'd believe any stats on about.com; it's right up there with Wikipedia in reliability. Those percentages seem incredibly high; what was her sample size? Not to mention that these numbers contradict the data found (and cited by me earlier) at http://www.nationalhomeless.or g/publications/facts.html which states closer to 26%; other reports are inflated due to flawed methodology. I will admit that we need to consider author biases in both our sources. |
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 170 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 1:41 pm: | |
Warriorfan, If you had bothered to read your own source...your researcher states: "North and Pollio say homelessness is a complex problem with multiple causes." "Many factors increase vulnerability," Pollio says. "Unfortunately, they tend to be things associated with being very poor and susceptible to a variety of human miseries, like family problems, poor employment and education or a history of abuse or neglect." Thanks for the support! |
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy
Post Number: 101 Registered: 04-2007
| Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 4:55 pm: | |
Warriorfan-- Those "homeless" people you talk about are the same ones who were "mental patients" until we decided as a nation that we were going to turn them loose on the streets to fend for themselves. When one of them wanders into a school or mall (private property, unlike a street in a shopping district), they are hustled away to someplace else. "What is your last address?" The rescue mission. "We'll drop you off." |
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 315 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 5:22 pm: | |
Warriorfan, Your WSU accounts reminds me of Night of the living dead. Wandering into classrooms while in session to look for bottles and cans?? How charming |
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 171 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 5:32 pm: | |
Actually, sitting through a class at WSU is a night of the living dead. Sst., no one is more utterly charming than you! |
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 316 Registered: 02-2007
| Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 5:51 pm: | |
Yep, a real charmer.. |
Ravine Member Username: Ravine
Post Number: 1235 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 6:08 pm: | |
Goirish's post was timely, indeed. I was pondering that very issue, earlier today, after hearing of the extra-late Tigers game. One could hardly blame the panhandlers, if they felt like they deserved Overtime Pay for hanging around. |
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan
Post Number: 776 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 6:44 pm: | |
quote:Warriorfan-- Those "homeless" people you talk about are the same ones who were "mental patients" until we decided as a nation that we were going to turn them loose on the streets to fend for themselves. When one of them wanders into a school or mall (private property, unlike a street in a shopping district), they are hustled away to someplace else. "What is your last address?" The rescue mission. "We'll drop you off." You don't know that, you are simply assuming that they had a mental illness. Believe it or not, the majority of the homeless in the United States are NOT mentally ill, see the aformentioned University of Washington Medical School study. The only one that I know for sure was mentally ill was the homeless guy involved in the choking incident because the DPD told the victim that the guy had walked out of a hospital where he was supposed to be observed for mental health issues. Certainly, being a sexual deviant or a criminal requires no mental illness, sane people do it all the time. And I don't know if I'd get all misty-eyed for the good old days of state mental hospitals if I were you. Those places were rife with abuse and the living conditions were often horrid. They were basically prisons for the mentally ill, a place where we could lock up the undesirables so that the rest of us wouldn't have to look at them. The problem with the current out-patient treatment system is that you can't FORCE these homeless people to take their meds, and most don't. So how far should we go? Round up the homeless, strap them down and medicate them against their will, and then stick them in a little room somewhere so they don't bother anyone? And where is the state of Michigan going to find the BILLIONS of dollars it would cost to provide in-patient mental health treatment to all the homeless people who need it? |
Ravine Member Username: Ravine
Post Number: 1238 Registered: 01-2006
| Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 7:15 pm: | |
Oakmangirl, I wasn't directing the "shove it" comment directly at you, I really wasn't. You seem to be a member of the group to whom I addressed that, frankly, but I apologize if you felt it as a remark aimed directly at you. Unless you deliberately chose a gender-deceptive screen name, you are a woman, and I wouldn't aim something that hostile and vulgar directly at a woman. I suppose I'm sort of splitting hairs, or something like that, with that explanation, but I am utterly sincere about it. I would like to pick up the argument here, especially since I think you somewhat misinterpreted my last post, but I really am a serious baseball geek, and I want to watch tonight's game, which is going to begin in about five minutes. |
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 174 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 7:21 pm: | |
Ravine, We all have our inner-geek to nourish; enjoy! I see now that you were being humorous in your last post. I'm really weary of arguing. I can understand feeling annoyed when accosted for money, but I simply wish others could "walk a mile in someone else's shoes" before passing judgment and making snarky comments. BTW, I didn't take the "shove it" personally. (Message edited by Oakmangirl on August 25, 2007) |
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy
Post Number: 103 Registered: 04-2007
| Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 10:01 pm: | |
People who only exhibit unpleasant behavior certainly don't belong in a mental hospital. But people who endanger themselves or others should be hospitalized. We've criminalized mental illness in this regard: only courts can order observation, etc., and we now can find someone "guilty but mentally ill"-- after the damage has been done. The current situation is not humane to anyone. We've made mental illness a matter of political rights rather than a health issue. (I know that this simplifies a complex problem-- but I'm the most dangerous creature of all: a psych minor.) |
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 178 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 10:11 pm: | |
True, Parkguy, but I don't think institutionalizing, while sometimes absolutely necessary,is humane; I'm more an advocate of group homes. "...but I'm the most dangerous creature of all: a psych minor" LOL So what percentage of our nation's homeless do you think need hospitalization? Surely, meds and a more normal home environment are better than a hospital "cell". |
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 1830 Registered: 01-2004
| Posted on Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 6:59 am: | |
"It's not bad luck, mental illness or deinstitutionalization that is causing a rise in the homeless population, but a rise in substance abuse" And mentally ill people NEVER self medicate with something like alcohol..? What a profoundly simplistic statement. |
Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors
Post Number: 559 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Sunday, August 26, 2007 - 11:35 pm: | |
I think it would benefit us all after reading this thread as well as the other thread on homelessness to ask Lowell to maybe add a section to the forum where non profits and community members alike could post volunteer opportunities so we can all do more to benefit our community. I have always thought the streetwise type of idea would be a great thing for the homeless of the city. the forum members on this site are some of the most dedicated Detroiters there are and thus would be some of the most inclined people to make a difference in the community. Working with existing programs and creating new ones will only benefit the city. If we had a community calendar with dates and contacts it would definitely allow for many more benefits to our community. |
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 188 Registered: 08-2007
| Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 12:41 am: | |
Urbanoutdoors, I think you are spot on with this idea. I realize that I've been spending too much time trying to change perceptions while I should have been also thinking about how I could get out there and help. Thanks! |