  Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 623 Registered: 07-2004 |
Well I am back from my weekend in Detroit. I have done this trip tons of times, but one thing that always strikes me, is how grand Metro Detroiter's seem to live for the most part. It is really weird driving back into Greater Toronto, and all you see on the fringe is tightly packed houses and townhouses. But when you drive into Metro Detroit from Port Huron all you see is huge monster homes, with tons of room between them, and all the fancy things from pools, to big cars in the driveways. Would you guys say that overall the average Metro Detroit family is more well off then residents in other U.S. Metro regions? Even all my cousin's seem to have huge homes. We went to our cousins new house all the way up at 26 Mile Road, and they are just huge homes, compared to what you see in most of Greater Toronto, including the more higher class areas. It is just amazing. I feel so much poorer now back in Toronto in our smaller houses  | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 1967 Registered: 10-2003 |
Oakland county is the 26th wealthiest county in the country out of about 3,077 counties. | ||
1953 Member Username: 1953 Post Number: 1444 Registered: 12-2004 |
I thought it was 3rd wealthiest? | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1881 Registered: 06-2006 |
Yeah we've always had a higher standard of living here than most other places, mostly because the entire American auto industry is based here... when people think of the auto industry and the people they employ, they tend to think of hourly line workers who get laid off all the time, when in reality there's so many more people involved in this industry, such as engineers, designers, suppliers and all types of economic spin off that results... It used to be the case that you could barely graduate high school and still earn a good living in Detroit...that may not be the case anymore, but there are still plenty of white collar jobs that are still paying very well... | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 1969 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well it depends on your measure. Oakland county is around the 3rd or 4th wealthy county of over 1 million people. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1882 Registered: 06-2006 |
"I thought it was 3rd wealthiest?" It varies year-to-year and depends how you measure "wealth"... Either way, there's a ton of $$$ in Oakland county | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1481 Registered: 10-2006 |
I think that in general it is more of a part of the U.S. culture than solely a Detroit issue. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 102 Registered: 08-2007 |
Yeah, Mike...here we value monster gas grills over health care. Besides, don't many Canadians have a more European "less is more" outlook? | ||
Gmich99 Member Username: Gmich99 Post Number: 228 Registered: 11-2005 |
Perhaps I am wrong, but doesn't Oakland County also have the greatest number of trailer parks in Michigan? | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 106 Registered: 10-2006 |
Yes and No. Detroiters are "rich" in that they have bigger homes, bigger yards and bigger cars than most other American, Canadian and European cities. At the same time, Detroiters are "poor" because they lack transit, walkable communities, cultural richness, public space and economic dynamism. BTW, Mike, you didn't even see the "rich" part of metro Detroit. Your drive takes you through Macomb County, which is the "middle of the road" county and cannot compare to the wealth in Oakland County. | ||
Margaret Member Username: Margaret Post Number: 63 Registered: 06-2007 |
right on, Oakmangirl! I would far prefer universal health care coverage to any monster McMansion... here's to the "less is more" crowd, more power to them! | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3054 Registered: 10-2003 |
Never mind that real estate in Southeast Michigan is dirt-cheap. For the price of a McMansion in Macomb County, you can buy a 1 bedroom apartment on the East Coast. It just depends on how wrapped up you are in material things. As Crawford implied above, since Detroit lacks a certain civic culture, its denizens tend to acquire more in material possessions (larger homes, SUVs, boats) instead. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1410 Registered: 04-2006 |
What's the average price of a home in Oakland County? | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 107 Registered: 10-2006 |
Even Oakland County is pretty cheap. In all but a few communities, you can get something decent for 150K and nice for 200K. The downside is that taxes are high and you might not make any money on your investment. My parents have a nice colonial in Bloomfield Township (Bloomfield Schools) and they could not sell it for much more than they paid for it a few years back. If I were to move back to the D, I would probably only consider the Woodward Corridor in Oakland County. IMO it's the best part of the metro, though Detroit has the potential to rival these communities. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 105 Registered: 08-2007 |
Nice "save", Crawford. "...though Detroit has the potential to rival these communities." | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 1228 Registered: 10-2003 |
mike; also keep in mind that you're driving along the waterfront, more or less. those tend to be the more affluent communities. also, it sounds like your cousins live in newer developments on the absolute fringe of the metro area. these tend to be the larger mcmansions built on former farm land (nee not very expensive land costs). | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 894 Registered: 01-2005 |
The prices for housing and just about everything else in Toronto is substantially higher than in MI. I looked at some real estate prices in Toronto (condos) a couple of years ago and was staggered by the per sq ft cost as opposed to Oakland County. Miketoronto: I have never heard a positive anecdote re: Canada's health care system. Only horror stories, not as to cost obviously, but level of service, availability of services (long wait times even with life threatening illnesses) etc. What say you? Correct or urban legend? Toronto, by the way, in my opinion, is truly a world class city, whatever that means. Love it. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 624 Registered: 07-2004 |
3rdworldcity, the health care in Canada is like anywhere else. THere are good things and areas that need improvment. Overall though, it is a good system for the most part. As always there is room for improvments. But overall it works pretty well. Even the U.S. has some areas in health care that need fixing, and the same is true with Canada. I have a friend who's parents could afford any health care they needed, and when his mom got sick with breast cancer, they stuck with the Canadian health system. Infact they had a doctor check her in the U.S. and he said the health care she recieved in Canada was top notch and just as good as in the U.S. So like I said, it all depends. Just like in the U.S., if you are in a major city, the services are pretty good. Toronto for example has some very well known world class hospitals. | ||
Dan Member Username: Dan Post Number: 1430 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Oakland County is the fourth wealthiest county in the United States among counties with more than one million people." According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O akland_County,_Michigan which cites this as the source: http://www.oakgov.com/peds/ass ets/docs/community_profiles/Oa kCounty.pdf#search=%22Oakland% 20County%20richest%22 | ||
Elsuperbob Member Username: Elsuperbob Post Number: 58 Registered: 03-2007 |
I always considered the really densely packed subs outside Toronto to be a result of Provincial planning and trying to better plan cities. From my understanding there are limits on development type in different areas and so that's how things get built. Here we don't have those restrictions. You do whatever you want and get the big homes on huge tracts of land. You can see the same thing outside Windsor. Tightly packed new homes, as you go along the E.C. Row. 3rdWorld... My aunt had major health problems for several years. In all that time everything was handled fine in Canada. Prompt and well done. Now she's doing very well. Only once did she come here because Toledo was the closest place a specialist in her problem was located. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 986 Registered: 06-2004 |
Land is cheap, but when I compare the Detroit area to almost anywhere West of the Mississippi, I am shocked by the widespread dilapidation of roads and buildings, the remarkably ugly sprawl, the desolation of the center city, the profound under-education, and the lack of open space and outdoor amenities. This is a poor area except in the metrics of owning snowmobiles, speedboats, RVs, over-sized lots and a few other useless and ecologically unsustainable indulgences favored by our glorious proletariats. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 987 Registered: 06-2004 |
Oh, I forgot to add our oversized and crushingly expensive highway system. (Message edited by ray on August 20, 2007) | ||
East_detroit Member Username: East_detroit Post Number: 1169 Registered: 11-2003 |
Don't worry, we're throwing it all away by buying foreign goods and services. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 654 Registered: 12-2006 |
Mike, Detroit (the region) was one of the wealthier urban areas when things were good in the North American auto industry and there was not much competition from outside. We had several local department stores (KMart and Hudsons were from here, notably), drug stores and banks based here, the Burroughs computer company, and more. Detroiters had more vacation homes per capita than anyone else in the US, and so on. But as others point out, we used our wealth questionably. We bought houses on large lots, which sounds nice, but it means everyone has more road, water line, sewer line and so on to maintain, since everyone is spread farther apart. Most of us can't walk to anywhere, which is OK so long as gasoline is cheap which it no longer is. Since our kids can't reasonably walk or bicycle to school (it isn't safe for the most part with the types of highways we've built and with where we've put our schools vis-a-vis our neighborhoods) we have the second highest incidence of childhood obesity in the U.S. Now that the auto biz is on the skids (in this hemisphere), things have changed. There are no longer any locally-based department stores and Comerica, the last big locally-based bank, moved their HQ to Texas. There are no locally based drug store chains; they've sold out to out-of-state concerns. What we've kept are the fat kids and the spread-out infrastructure we can no longer afford to take care of. (Don't believe me on that last one; ask our regional planning agency, SEMCOG.) Now, I will crow about one thing: our regional park system, Metro Parks. That's one of the nicer park systems in North America, and I've been around. So we aren't total slugs; but on balance we have not used our (former) wealth very wisely. | ||
Craig Member Username: Craig Post Number: 239 Registered: 02-2007 |
Dan said "...Detroit lacks a certain civic culture..." Dan: what do you (and others) mean by that? I have a colleague from NYC who 'hates that I cannot see a show until it's been on Broadway for nine months.' Is Detroit (& suburbs) really the cultural wasteland alleged by some east coasters? | ||
Novine Member Username: Novine Post Number: 63 Registered: 07-2007 |
"Is Detroit (& suburbs) really the cultural wasteland alleged by some east coasters?" By comparison to NYC, some might say so. But let's face it, NYC trumps just about any place when it comes to culture whether it be Boston, Philly or Detroit. I don't think any of the three I listed are "wastelands" when it comes to culture but if you're expectation is to see a Broadway show within a month of it opening, really, where is that going to be true but NYC (or London or some other cultural mecca). There's plenty here for those who seek it and some of it ranks among the better cultural institutions in the US. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 1974 Registered: 10-2003 |
Dan, more than just Wikipedia. That Oakland County information is based on the 2000 census, if you look at their sources. http://www.granburyedc.com/fil es/InvestmentNews.pdf This is an income per capita survery, Oakland is 19th, even without the "over one million residents" caveat. So I think the information can be taken as valid. | ||
Craig Member Username: Craig Post Number: 241 Registered: 02-2007 |
The gauntlet that I'll drop is this: who is to say what is and is not valuable, present or lacking? One can demonstrate that a locale has more stages or galleries than another, but those are biased metrics by which to evaluate. Think that NASCAR is for drunk, in-bred cretins? Tell that to the one who finds release in the thunder and sees grace in the maneuvering. Elvis commemorative plates are the cultural equivalent of a belch? Again - tell that to the one who finds meaning and a salve in the songs of the King. Art is everywhere where people are, at the moment, sober. Even in home-boys pimping their rides. The old saw holds that 'history is written by the victors' but a lot of people have not conceded defeat and agreed that Bosch is the pinnacle of artistic expression. Maybe "art" among the blue collar and provincial-types is decentralized, non-traditional, and manifest in physical activity and in orderly yards? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1411 Registered: 04-2006 |
>Johnlodge I dunno, a lot has changed in s/e Michigan since the 2000 census... | ||
Dannaroo Member Username: Dannaroo Post Number: 131 Registered: 05-2006 |
IHeartTheD, I think that the last link JohnLodge provided uses Woods and Poole Economics surveys that are much more recent than the 2000 U.S. Survey. The Oakland County Planning Department uses Claritas surveys and the U.S. Bureau of Economic Analysis for more recent information than the Census or ACS. The most recent stats from The Bureau of Economic Analysis listed Oakland County still as having the 4th highest PCI for counties over 1 million and 26th highest overall (this was unchanged from 2003). While these figures are impressive, it is worth noting that out of the eight counties in the U.S. with populations over 1 million and among the top ten in PCI (according to the BEA) in both 2003 and 2005 (NY County, NY; Fairfax County, VA; Nassau County, NY; Oakland County, MI; Middlesex County, MA; Santa Clara County, CA; King County, WA; and Palm Beach County, FL), Oakland County had the lowest increase in PCI between 2003 and 2005. Also, when you look at other suburban counties with roughly a million residents around the core cities of Boston, Chicago, LA, New York, Philadelphia, and Washington D.C. (but not containing those core cities), only Lake County, IL (6.1%) and Will County, IL (5.8) had a lower rate of growth in their PCI from 2003 to 2005. Oakland County grew at about 6.6% (The average growth rate of the counties adjacent to those core cities is about 9.875%; also for the sake of a reference point, Macomb County experienced only a 1.6% increase in their PCI between 2003 and 2005). Median Household Income as taken from the latest Claritas Community Profile Analysis' has been rising (slowly but steadily) in the majority communities in Oakland County; the Village of Bloomfield Hills is the most notable exception - it's MHI went from $194,802 in 2004 to $191,837 in 2006 (-1.52%) I really have no point to this post. I just wanted to nerd things up a bit more with some additional stats! | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1885 Registered: 06-2006 |
Who cares where it ranks...we all know there are boatloads of $$$ in Oakland county, way more than most other places, and that people there live quite comfortably | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3065 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Detroit certainly is not a cultural wasteland. I think that a lot of what Detroit offers is quite good, intriguing, and unique. What I meant, however, is that there isn't a lot of public, i.e. "civic", life in Southeast Michigan. Most people spend their time either in their home, their cars, or in a shopping mall--all privately-owned domains. There isn't a whole lot of pedestrian activity or a transit network that fosters intermingling of various people. With the exception of Campus Martius, and to an extent Hart Plaza/Riverwalk, you don't tend to see people congregating in neighborhood parks and squares, either. The lifestyle in Detroit tends to be more privately oriented as opposed to spending time in the public realm. There seems to be more of a focus on acquisition of material goods for one's personal enjoyment: a citizen of one's own personally held domain, as opposed to a citizen of the metropolis. Of course, this is just my perception, and anyone is free to disagree. Apologies for any misunderstanding. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 1980 Registered: 10-2003 |
The Riverfront seems to definitely be gaining momentum as a public gathering area. I always see families down there with their kids running through the Pontiac fountain now, or families riding bikes. It is nice to see. There was a guy playing a trumpet for some people in line to board the Ovation the other day, trying to make a little dough. A cop shooed him away. There was a collective "awwwww" from people all around, the cop shrugged and looked a little embarassed. Hehehe. |
