 
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 598
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 6:03 pm: |    |
Dan,
"In Michigan", at least the parts of the state I've been in. Not sure if it's true in other places; I don't get out much these days.
Scott |
Jerome81
Member
Username: Jerome81
Post Number: 1606
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 7:28 pm: | |
You know what the biggest/hottest shopping place here in silicon valley is? A "fake" downtown called Santana Row. I was created on an empty lot across from a big mall (Valley Fair). They put the "main street" down the middle, with grassy medians that can hold cafes and park benches etc. Then, on this narrow street, they added sidewalks, shopping, restaurants, and above that they put in condos and apartments. There is also a nice gym, and a sort of "town square" that usually has lots of people hanging out and live music.
It is really a pretty pleasant place. But the thing is that this is a fake/replica downtown/main street shopping district you see dying all over the rest of the country. It reminds me, more than anything, of Chicago's Michigan Ave just plunked on a huge open lot in San Jose/Santa Clara. Upscale shopping. Good restaurants. Lots of people, etc.
I don't get it. Maybe they just did it correctly, because everything opened all at once (and thus created enough buzz, and had enough going on to draw people down), I don't know. I just find it almost ridiculous (and very interesting) that this type of shopping is so popular, yet no such areas exist in a REAL downtown, or if they do, not very many people visit.
I've been told by friends in construction that Sunnyvale is now planning their own such Santana Row. I'm sure it will be a big hit there too.
I just look at this place, and it is so popular, I wonder why it can't be replicated, say, on Washington Blvd in Detroit. Its like people like the on-street shopping experience, but only when its fake....
http://www.walkableneighborhoo ds.com/photos/thumbnails.php?a lbum=72
http://images.google.com/image s?hl=en&q=santana+row&gbv=2
http://www.santanarow.com
Oh, and I guess the proof is that done right, people will go. I don't know if Penney's and Starbucks will be enough though.
Oh, and I bet I can guess the restaurants that will open there.....same as every other "restaurant" in Michigan. Applebees, maybe a Chilis or TGI Fridays, maybe a Panera Bread, Red Lobster..... oh and maybe a Chotchkie's or a Flingers.... Same ole same ole. I swear "going out for dinner" in Michigan means "going to a chain restaurant". Maybe because unique restaurants don't exist, but I suspect also because people in MI for some reason like chain-crap. Don't know how many times relatives want BBQ and I can't convince them to go to Slow's because they wanna hit up Famous Daves....bah. My girlfriend always used to hit up Chili's with all her friends for dinner and drinks at girls night out. Ok, I'm really gettin riled up, better quit.... |
Jerome81
Member
Username: Jerome81
Post Number: 1607
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 7:32 pm: | |
And yeah, it does appear you have to leave michigan to get away from it. You'd think that with the gazillions of cookie cutter developments and strip malls and shopping malls there could be ONE place where you could do your shopping/eating/playing/movies /concerts without having to go to one of these places.
Yet I don't know of one in the entire state. Grand Rapids is just as bad as Detroit in this sense.
There are some nice little downtowns for sure, but no place where you can hit up the big stores, or the fancy-pants restaurants, etc.
Witness mass exodus of young people to Chicago...
The problem is that even if somebody had the nuts to build it, I'm not so sure Michiganders would even use it. The ones who would probably left already anyway... |
Johnnny5
Member
Username: Johnnny5
Post Number: 557
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 8:05 pm: | |
I really don't understand where some are getting the idea that these type of developments are only in Michigan. I've been all over the U.S and have seen these strip mall/big box/open air malls in almost every Metro area in the U.S. And in every out lot there's an Applebees, TGI Fridays or Chili's. Like it or not it's a nationwide trend not just a suburban Detroit one. |
Terryh
Member
Username: Terryh
Post Number: 442
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 8:06 pm: | |
More urban sprawl=less space for wildlife; acres of viable farmland destroyed; trees cleared; more snobby snooty suburbanites negating small community charm,trust and friendliness; pollution; increased traffic; strain on natural resources etc. |
Bob
Member
Username: Bob
Post Number: 1524
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 9:58 pm: | |
This is plain and simple that then population is stable and has some money in White Lake Township, which Waterford Twp, where Summit Place is located is a dying community. Every other house is in foreclosure. While White Lake Township has experienced growth, has a stable population, and much better schools that Waterford Twp. This makes perfect sense from a retail standpoint go where the people and money are, and it isn't in Waterford or Pontiac. |
Dustin89
Member
Username: Dustin89
Post Number: 89
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 10:22 pm: | |
That is a false assumption...Great Lakes Crossing is essentially in a similar location as Summit Place (on the edge of Pontiac), just on the north side of town. And yet it has been fairly successful, with tons of peripheral retail. Malls do not succeed just based upon their address--it is also the number of prospective shoppers within a certain driving radius. And on that score, Summit has a good base--North Oakland County, the Bloomfields, the Woodward Corridor, Rochester, and of course Waterford and the City of Pontiac and their large populations. If anything, a mall's success is based more today on its freeway access than what municipality it lies in. The reason any development in White Lake Twp. may succeed is not just because White Lake itself is in good shape, but because of the draw from the other northwestern suburbs. |
Bob
Member
Username: Bob
Post Number: 1525
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 10:37 pm: | |
Drive through Waterford Twp and then drive through White Lake Twp. and you can see why they want to build a mall there and not just be happy with their locations at Summit Place. |
Cris
Member
Username: Cris
Post Number: 453
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 11:10 pm: | |
They will get a lot of business there. This is an area that has been lacking in retail development for a long time because of a local government that used to discourage it, as well as a lack of sewer systems along M-59. Its residential growth outpaced its retail growth for many years. Until a few years ago, residents were driving long distances to do any shopping beyond basic groceries, etc. Great Lakes Crossing is about a 30-40 minute drive east from that area, and Summit Place is a dead mall. Novi is just as far away to the south (with no direct route). This doesn't surprise me at all.
Bit of recent history on the area: When Meijer wanted to build a store in White Lake, it was held up for years by zoning restrictions and who knows what else. Finally, it became a ballot issue and residents were asked to vote on whether the township's zoning laws should be changed to allow commercial development along M-59. Many people thought it would fail but, in fact, it passed. After that, the Meijer store was a go. Meijer, I believe, paid for installation of sewer lines along M-59 and it opened the door to all the other new retail that is coming along in White Lake.
Before that, most of M-59 in White Lake was large, empty parcels of land with big For Sale signs. |
Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman
Post Number: 489
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 11:23 pm: | |
White Lake and Waterford Townships should both opt in to the Oakland County Transit Authority to get SMART. A frequent bus route along M-59 would make lots of sense as Pontiac residents will then have bus service to work. This will lower unemployment in Michigan and increase the state budget by not paying as much welfare and having more bus SMART drivers paying income and other taxes.
These developers should pay for our transportation system instead of forcing the high cost on cities such as Detroit which has suffered large cuts in funding. State transit funds have remained largely flat in the last 15 years. Yet, the taxpayers pay for more roads and more to maintain them. The developers then profit from the taxpayers. It's time for you DY'ers to stop being stupid and instead to be SMART.
So, tell me DY'ers why do we NOT fight our state leaders who let developers tear up cornfields and forests while Detroit suffers from the loss of local tax revenues. |
Hooha
Member
Username: Hooha
Post Number: 145
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 11:39 pm: | |
There's definitely big box/strip mall developments all over the country. My ex's parents lived just southeast of Birmingham, Alabama off I-280, and it was some of the worst sprawl I've ever seen. Nothing but big box stores and strip malls (two-story strip malls!) off of a 12 lane road for miles. During my time there we sampled such classic southern cuisine as P.F. Changs, Bahama Breeze, Cheesecake Factory, Johnny Rockets, etc. And everything looked like it couldn't be more than 10 years old. If you hate sprawl, this place was hell.
Funny story, we ate at a Cheeburger Cheeburger down there that was across the street from an O'Charley's. At the time I commented how they must both be local places cuz I'd never heard of them before. Not 6 months later one of each was built in Livonia. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 29
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 11:43 pm: | |
Realistically, how many people will this location serve? White Lake - sure. Western Waterford? Sure. Eastern Hartland - sure. But beyond that, people will go to Great Lakes Crossing or Twelve Oaks or the development in Hartland or Brighton. It doesn't seem like a very large population base. |
Deteamster
Member
Username: Deteamster
Post Number: 32
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 11:48 pm: | |
Get in the car, honey. We're going to Jerkwater Shitsville, Michigan to get some coolats and Orange mocha frappuccinos!
Lord knows last time I went hiking, I thought, "Christ, there is no Starbucks in these stinking woods! There is no sense of place!"
Either most people really are morons and enjoy the same innocuous chain stores and same crappy bland restaurants, or they've just had it shoved down their throats too long.
"White Lake was just a community that you drove through. What we want is people to stop, enjoy it, spend their money and continue on."
Now it's a community I'm going to speed faster through. Or shoplift from. |
Cris
Member
Username: Cris
Post Number: 454
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 12:04 am: | |
LOL, Deteamster!!!
About the customer base... they'll probably get people from White Lake, Highland, Hartland, Milford, Milford Twp, Commerce/Union Lake, Waterford, and northern Oakland County places like Holly and Davisburg. |
Royce
Member
Username: Royce
Post Number: 2342
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 2:45 am: | |
Jerome, communities build "fake" downtowns so that they can get that "downtown shopping" experience close to where they live instead of traveling to the "real" downtowns where they might have to confront bums, pan handlers, and other undesirables. |
Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman
Post Number: 490
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 6:08 am: | |
Livonia is a community but people don't stop anymore unless they go to Target and Wal-Mart.
Or state is losing jobs because we have no leadership in Lansing that has the courage to do anything except to raise taxes.
If we all just pay a little more in taxes and let the developers destroy a few thousand acres of land more then our leaders will get another pay raise.
Livonia city government of 2006 was the prime example of how NOT to run our state. But, instead of learning from this mistake we instead follow this example and further destroy our job base and the natural beauty that rightfully belongs to us.
It's time to stop the bullshitting and time to attack the bulldozers. We need to fix Detroit and Livonia first. Detroit and Livonia must stand together as one city and fight the regressive Lansing government that rewards incompetence and the big developers who do not pay their fare taxes in Michigan.
We must make the rich pay at the fare box or make them go to another state. The SMART bus lines must go through first or NO building permits should be issued ever again period.
Michigan is widening freeways more and more while at the same time we lose our inner cities, bus lines and jobs. |
Burnsie
Member
Username: Burnsie
Post Number: 1115
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 8:26 am: | |
The twp. treasurer said it's "very much in keeping with the character of the community." So, White Lake Twp.'s "character" is nothing more than the same chain stuff that's everywhere else. What a stupid statement. Then the supervisor said it will create a "sense of place." How? By having more of the same sprawl that's everywhere else in the country? |
Planner_727
Member
Username: Planner_727
Post Number: 134
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 10:18 am: | |
How ironic that the township decalres a strip commercial development, self proclaimed as a pull of shoppers from an area mall, in a township with 50% parkland, as fitting in with the character of the township. It will add so much traffic that they have to expand ELizabeth Lake Road for a mile. Maybe they'll plant some new street trees and make a stormwater area that simulates some of the wetlands around the Township...
I'd also like to point out that the article says "commercial along M-59 while maintaining a woodsy..., where many of the 30,000 residents live on an acre or more"... first, the Township has only 23,000 acres, and if more than 50% are parkland, that means that 30,000 people live on about 12,000 acres... thats about 2.5 dwellings per acre--hardly rural! Second, the whole idea of linking a community of 30,000 where many live on an acre plus to a rural utopia is exactly how we got to where we are - a terrible waste of land for private use and the degradation of our quality of life. |
Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr
Post Number: 682
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 10:33 am: | |
planner, your math is wrong. that's 2.5 people per acre, not 2.5 dwellings per acre. more than one person will generally live in a home.
not that i disagree with your point... |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1318
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 12:12 pm: | |
There's definitely big box/strip mall developments all over the country. My ex's parents lived just southeast of Birmingham, Alabama off I-280, and it was some of the worst sprawl I've ever seen.
I-280? I-80 goes nowhere near Birmingham, AL... |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1319
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 12:16 pm: | |
I think it's safe to say that sprawl in metro Detroit is very much out of control. |
Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr
Post Number: 683
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 12:48 pm: | |
quote:I-280? I-80 goes nowhere near Birmingham, AL...
think that was intended to be US-280 |
Cris
Member
Username: Cris
Post Number: 455
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 3:05 pm: | |
The article says "many" of the township's residents live on an acre or more. However, many more live on way less than an acre. From what I can tell, most of the township, that is not parkland, is subdivisions. And trailer parks. |
Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman
Post Number: 492
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 5:39 am: | |
quote
The twp. treasurer said it's "very much in keeping with the character of the community."
quote
He's exactly right. Big government pay raises and lot's of low wage jobs for the working class people and more roads and more cars.
Just like Livonia.
White Lake will soon join the cities of Detroit and Livonia and combine into one city.
But, don't worry DY'ers SEMCOG will save us with new regional transit and sewer taxes.
And then they too will get big pay raises.
And that's the american way. |
Jrvass
Member
Username: Jrvass
Post Number: 161
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 7:08 pm: | |
I drive M-59 daily...
Yesterday morning there were trees, today there are none.
Yesterday morning there was a field, today there is a construction site, tomorrow a vacant building in a strip mall.
It is insane! |
Rocket_city
Member
Username: Rocket_city
Post Number: 347
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 7:57 pm: | |
They aren't partnering with Troy to become "downtown Southeast Michigan", are they?
What next, a subway commuter train to connect it to the dirt roads of Ray Township? I bet they are prime for retail development too. A new KMart there can capture the upscale market from New Baltimore. That city is over 10 years old, so it'll be turning "ghetto" soon anyway.
Keep on keepin on, Southeast Michigan and don't let the obvious slap you in the face. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 1616
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 8:18 pm: | |
Land developers share part of the blame. All they do is go into an area, rip out the trees, put in infrastructure, and hope a developer wants it. It's all they do, and it's the only way to make money. If the machine stops for even a moment, they could go out of business. Some of them probably will, now that the housing market and economy can't support the constant developing. Many times, cities believe it is in their best interest to allow this development, they believe it will bring new residents and new consumers, and it may for awhile. But it wasn't that long ago that Waterford/Commerce were quiet communities along the lakes, with an "up north" like quality about them. Now on Cooley Lk Rd on their border, there are already at least five strip malls that have major vacancies in them. I am lived in that area once, and watched it happen in a short time. And they are STILL building strip malls, right next to 75% empty ones. It is senseless! The speculation and drive for work for developers leads to building without real demand. And once is there, it isn't likely to leave, empty or not. Only decay. |
Rocket_city
Member
Username: Rocket_city
Post Number: 349
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 8:34 pm: | |
I'm with you, John.
I remember when I was in undergrad a few years ago at MSU, I would make periodic highly-anticipated day trips to Detroit from Lansing. As I approached the South Lyon area, I recall the clearing of a large swoth of land on the north side of I-96.
Upon each periodic trip, I would notice the slow, yet noticeable change that had occurred. Eventually, there was the completion of this place called Lyon Towne Centre (or something ugly like that). Still relatively unfamiliar with SE Michigan, I continued to look about me for the large expanse of housing stock that would serve as the market for this new development. There was no such thing. Hmmm, but there is now. And you know what, it doesn't matter if the closest home is a 10 minute drive away. The chicken was allowed to come before the egg in this case...at least I think...or is it "the underwear was put on after the pants"? Ah, screw it. You get my drift. |
Johnnny5
Member
Username: Johnnny5
Post Number: 564
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 9:12 pm: | |
Rocket-City that area was surrounded by a sizable population well before work began on the Lyon Centre development. The reason the surrounding area appears rather undeveloped from the freeway is due to the large amount of park land that borders I-96. Definitely not a "chicken before the egg" situation. |
Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman
Post Number: 494
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 10:53 pm: | |
I publicly challenge the governor and her supporters and SEMCOG and MDOT to go on television and debate my mass transit plan to save Detroit and Livonia from losing more people by attracting more jobs and lowering local taxes.
If I get enough support on DETROIT LINKS, then I will go on television and I will personally stop the destruction in White Lake and throughout southeast Michigan. I have effectively won more money for the city of Detroit from Lansing and fixed many lower income areas in the past. I'm working to make even more improvements but I need more supporters because the destruction continues and my efforts were not enough to fix SMART and DDOT to keep Livonia or attract more communities. I'm sure that I will succeed in the future if I can continue my efforts.
If I get lots of support then I will take over both DDOT and SMART and make then both world class public bus systems. I work in the mass transportation industry and have much working knowledge of seamlessly connecting industries, goods and people together. I keep the car companies running and move people to their jobs and also I filled many buses up in the past.
I also plan on running for Livonia city council and I will promise to help fill up the buses and bring jobs to our area. |
Novine
Member
Username: Novine
Post Number: 40
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 10:57 pm: | |
"As I approached the South Lyon area, I recall the clearing of a large swoth of land on the north side of I-96."
Actually, it's south of the I-96 but give the north side time, it should catch up.
I think Rocket_city was trying to make the point that there's no housing within walking distance of the "Towne Centre" which makes it nothing more than another auto-oriented strip mall. I think there actually is some housing within a relatively close distance but nothing that would justify that large a development. |
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