Discuss Detroit » Archives - July 2007 » Should Detroit residents take the blame for some of the inner city decay « Previous Next »
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Gmich99
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Username: Gmich99

Post Number: 221
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 1:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Buyamerican- Interesting, Detroit has declined in population every decade since 1950.
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Sstashmoo
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Username: Sstashmoo

Post Number: 212
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 1:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kaptan,

You know it's bad here when the strippers have to leave for more lucrative trade. LOL

Good assessment, albeit a strange source.

Things are definitely tight here. Most folks I know with businesses are holding their collective breaths and hanging on, but many are going in deeper all the time to do so. Basically going for broke.

And whomever said "there are jobs here" is only half correct. Yes there are jobs here, but they don't pay anything. I think Jesse Jackson put that best: "Giving a man a job is not enough, back during slavery, everyone had a job"

Truthfully though, when it comes to pay scales, I blame the women (ducking) for entering the workforce in such large numbers. Two income families allowed companies to find workers at ridiculously low wages. In a lot of homes we have two people working for what one should actually be making. Poor choices (taking jobs at too low hourly rates) and an abundance of people power caused alot of the low wages to happen. It's a supply and demand thing. Not to mention the adverse effect it has had on families in general. i.e. ridiculously high divorce rates. Some kids just totally out of control. I heard the other day that the new tour at one of the car plants they are thinking about suspending, why you ask? The kids on the tour are spitting on the workers below as their parents look on.

The neighborhood I was raised in it was all single income households, all nice brick houses, a bunch of kids, new car in the driveway and never work any overtime. Overtime? what is that?

Folks in that situation wouldn't last a month in todays economy.

Society has slowly migrated into a much lower standard of living and many aren't even aware of it.
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 9192
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Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 1:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When you study Dearborn, one might come to the conclusion that "all the stars lined up" but it was really just another Detroit - albeit with a few more rules and in some ways, several iron fists.

The mayor was deemed by some to be "racist" but such attitudes were prevalent in those days, on all sides. Putting that aside, he was probably a thinker on the municipal side like Henry Ford was a thinker on the automotive side. Both were brilliant, both were futuristic, and wildly successful at what they did. However, like every single one of us, our crystal clear view thru the rearview mirror shows they were wrong on several counts. Moving on.....

From the mayor on down, Dearborn has been a stickler on zoning, building inspection, and city services. Each department was exemplary & legendary. Because the mayor served for so long (at one time the longest running mayor in the USA - a total of 42 years, I think) these services were consistent, stringent and thorough for many, many years - and through many of what, in retrospect, we could refer to as Detroit's "crucial" years. While the town does not have the international impact of the Ford automobile, Dearborn is a study in urban success and remains a legacy to the mayor.

Meanwhile at Ford, back when no one cared and land was cheap, Henry Ford built/funded Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village, a gem still undiscovered by many Detroit-area residents but renowned the world over, and (not sure about now) at one time in the top 10 tourist attractions in the USA. While many of the wealthy in that era were building the next "biggest" boat or mansion, HF shunned the GP crowd and focused his "putzing" on gathering historical gems from around the USA (and a few from around the world) and transplanted (now) priceless artifacts of our background that he was able to acquire for the asking, a small price, or to be honest, whatever the seller wanted. Today, the thought of dismantling, moving, and reconstructing things like the Wright Brothers Cycle Shop, Noah Webster's home, the courthouse where Lincoln practiced law (containing the chair Lincoln was shot in) are all there, along with other recognizable/famous buildings too numerous to list. As kids, we passed these things and heard the stories, as an adult my jaw drops in amazement to see what one man was able to accomplish as a hobby with his dream and his money - what a legacy.

The stories of the clashes/cooperation between the City of Dearborn and Ford Motor Company are legend, but the end result was enviable on nearly all counts.

Stating that seeing this level of success sitting adjacent to Detroit causes me to ponder would be the understatement of the year.
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 9193
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Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 2:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One point re: Dearborn and maintaining the city
When one sold a home in Dearborn (not sure how it works today) it had to be inspected by the city before the sale. Anything not up to snuff had to be repaired before the home could be listed. Anything and everything could be challenged - wiring, plumbing, etc. "Bringing it up to code" was a common lament of folks selling homes in Dearborn, according to friends. However, that attention to detail over the years was one more way home values in Dearborn always commanded a premium over their neighbors, as folks knew the quality and maintenance was there.
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Sstashmoo
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Username: Sstashmoo

Post Number: 213
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Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 2:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quote: "The mayor was deemed by some to be "racist" but such attitudes were prevalent in those days, on all sides."

Karl, Maybe comments like:

"I’m not a racist, but I just hate those black bas&%rds," Mayor Orville Hubbard (Source: Metrotimes article)

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say quotes like the one above are probably why Hubbard was deemed a racist. Hubbard exemplified everything that was wrong with society in that era.

Hubbard is not the reason Dearborn is less decayed than Detroit. It's because Ford didn't pull out of there. Had he/it done so, Dearborn would be a much different city today.
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Michigan
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Username: Michigan

Post Number: 911
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 7:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SST- The question here is not if the former mayor of Dearborn was racist. The question is did Dearborn's efforts as a city to maintain a high level of services and zoning and housing stock combined with close interaction and relations with Ford help convince Ford to stay in Dearborn? I would say, and have said repeatedly in this thread, YES.
I would also say that Detroit can still learn a thing or two from Dearborn that can improve the city and the quality of life for its residents. Listen, I don't care what color a homeowner is. We all want our homes to appreciate in value. We all want our neighborhoods to be safe and convenient. So let's examine and absorb a successful municipal government's "best practices" and apply them to Detroit. That is just smart management.

Oh, and preemptively- please no one say "they were/are racist. We don't want to be like them." That is b-llsh-t, pardon my French. After WWII we learned everything we could from the Germans and the Japanese. We always tried to learn from the Soviets. Sometimes your competition is just better than you, and you would be stupid not to gain from his expertise.
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 9194
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Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 8:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sstashmoo said: "...quotes like the one above are probably why Hubbard was deemed a racist. Hubbard exemplified everything that was wrong with society in that era."

Well duh.

So we're looking back at that era for everything that was wrong, and none of the right?

How do you figure that Hubbard - now perhaps you'll say that Ford was part of it - must be painted as (fill in blank) because of the success of his city?

It's been discussed many times why the auto companies moved certain ops out of Detroit. Why didn't Ford move out of Dearborn? I cited many reasons why Dearborn has succeeded. Did Detroit have strict building codes/zoning, especially in residential areas? Did Detroit have beautiful buildings and history (like Greenfield Village)

I agree - Deaborn would be different without Ford - but would it be Detroit? Don't think so. And much of it would be due to Hubbard's leadership over a long period of time.

Further: if he was the epitome of "everything that was wrong with society" why didn't riots spill over into Dearborn? In fact, as an easily-accessible next-door neighbor, why wasn't Dearborn targeted?
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Meaghansdad
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Username: Meaghansdad

Post Number: 35
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Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 10:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've noticed on DY is that most of us tend to speak to the last post instead of the topic. the answer is yes........and no.
Clearly, with the amount of crime that is committed in the city, by the residents of the city(primarily perpetrated by kids, which brings in the entire parental responsibility faction), the residents of the city bear some, if not most responsibility for the condition.

But I think it extremely naive for anyone to think that structural and institutional racism (and sexism) has not played integral factors in the disproportionate amount of unemployed citizens in the city. Other than hurling racist invectives at one another, for which we all have the ability to do, how do we attempt to find answers to solve these problems, that will undoubtedly find their ways into our homes, and communities.
I'm a resident of an inner ring suburb, so I feel that I, and residents of other inner ring (Ferndale, Royal Oak, Madison Heights, Eastpointe) suburbs have a vested interest in what occurs in the city.
The continued deterioration,
The birth of the illegitimate children to parents that lack employable skills(which is a preeminent factor in the quality of life crimes that plague these areas.
The ever alarming dropout rates. (Grosse Pointe has opened a "community" read: alternative, school)

The problems are ever apparent but what can we do to fix them?


I have more to say, but Meaghan has awaken and intends on beating the screen of this laptop with her bottle.
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None
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Post Number: 9
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 12:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Should Detroit residents take the blame for some of the inner city decay"

Historically any group of people that relies on handouts/reparations for their substance is doomed to the worst type of Slavery, their own mind.

Self respect is earned not given and without it the results are obvious, if an individual cannot respect them self how can they respect others and expect to live in a civil society.

This is reason for inner city decay and we have no one to blame but our selfs.
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Exmotowner
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Username: Exmotowner

Post Number: 386
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 2:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Karl, some of these people can dish it out but sure as hell cant take it. They are NEVER wrong.

Yes, detroits problems (as any city) has to be blamed on the residents. Who else? Just because your poor dosent mean your home has to look like hell. Growing up we were one of the poorest families in our neighborhood but our house was clean and the grass was mowed. Those who are blaming anyone else other than the residents are just trying to find excuses to blame others.
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Detroit_stylin
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Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 4614
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 2:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No ex...they sought you all by your lonesome and went all out the way just to victimize you. Every last citizen in the city...

Poor, poor you...


BTW here is a site that you may want to check out:

www.NashvilleYes!.com
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 9222
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Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 2:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Exmo - agreed.
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Trying_2_stay
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Username: Trying_2_stay

Post Number: 5
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 7:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ex said: Yes, detroit's problems (as any city) has to be blamed on the residents. Who else? Just because your poor doesnt mean your home has to look like hell. Growing up we were one of the poorest families in our neighborhood but our house was clean and the grass was mowed. Those who are blaming anyone else other than the residents are just trying to find excuses to blame others.

I soooooo agree with this statement. When I was 18 I moved out of my parents house and rented the house next door. LOL The landlord was so impressed that I took the Intuitive to keep the yard done and planted flowers that he took $50 off my rent. I told him it wasn't necessary because although I was renting it was up to me to keep the house up so that the neighborhood didn't look bad. No one thinks like that, most of the people I know that rent said it's not their house so why should they do that? simple.............. because you live there.
If Detroiter's don't take responsibility for their own neighborhoods who should? The mayor? Keep dreaming unless you live in one of the empowerment zones.
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 9224
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Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 7:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Trying, I'm impressed that at age 18 you made several bold moves - moving out - but not so far that your family would worry, doing the yard, planting flowers. Personal responsibility - if you haven't already, you'll go far.

Having owned rental property, I also would have taken $$ off your rent. Tenants like you are few and far between, and I treated 'em like the gold that they were.
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Kaptansolo
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Username: Kaptansolo

Post Number: 70
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Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 8:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, I agree with Meagansdad. Being new to message boards I thought that the intellectuals here would really be trying to find answers or I should say solutions to these problems...WE all (I'm included) have done more mud slinging than anything.

I will say that one of the posts stated by buyamerican had really stuck out in my mind

"Available jobs wouldn't have made any difference at all...and, by the way, there are jobs in Detroit. The young people in Detroit think they deserve better though. They want now what it took most of us years to make. These thugs aren't looking for jobs. They are looking for easy money, money that they don't have to work for. Easy money comes from drugs, stealing, mugging, breaking in, random killings and so on and so on and so on. Gang mentality is what they count on, not Ford, GM or Chrysler. They prey on whites, blacks, children, the elderly, anyone."

Well that does sound pretty hopeless. I mean something that good jobs cannot fix...I have to be honest...is far beyond my comprehension.

Karl, you offer a lot of examples but it sounds almost like buyamerican...like the people in Detroit are just incapable...no matter what.

It sounds "elitist" of you. I'm sure that you are just calling it the way you see it.

Due to the fact that racism does exist, it would be hard to disagree on anything if the subject concerns two groups and there are all of one color in one group and all the other in the OTHER.

Someone here said that self-respect is earned in this country.

I don't know if any of you here know Alan Markovitz?(not sure if this is the correct spelling of his name)
Years ago I used to hang out in strip clubs. I remember a friend of mine tagging along with me. He worked at Ford at the time but he got a lot of "hell" from his parents when he was working these low paying jobs in supermarkets and department stores. I was just starting out then as well. I worked for N.S.K.Corp. back then.
Here we were two young men just starting out with good jobs and student loans were our biggest responsibilities at the time. So, we were at this club and my buddy starts talking about how much of a lack of respect for dancers he has. I was like oh...I did not know you felt that way. He continued and then it got to the point where he was just angry about everything associated with them. He went as far as to say, "I don't think that they should make as "much" money as they make in here". I asked, "what do you mean?"
He said, "I don't think that anyone should be able to make the same amount of money as I if they did not go to school like I did."
While we were there, Mr. Markovitz came into the club. He was the owner and this was one of many strip clubs that he owned in Michigan and Florida. When my buddy saw him and realized who he was(apparently he had read about him) he had this extreme, almost ass-kissing type of respect for this man.
I thought, damn, you have respect for the man who reaps the benefits of the place that makes its money off the girls that you think are dirt and should be regulated to low pay because of a lack of education.
I brought up the fact that for a lot of these women...this is the best they can do and some have mouths to feed at home. Some did not have the same opportunities as you and I and did not have the support to go to school...He did not care.

Sometimes when I read some of these post I get that same feeling like back then.
No one gives a darn what your problems may be or if it was not even your fault. They only have respect for those who are what "they" consider to be respectable. Even if the position they are in rest on the backs of those they have no respect for.

You can't earn respect from people who think like that.

There is another thread over on reparations for the Indians that sounds very similar.

I don't care who you are...in this country...you are going to need money to fix any problem.
"Money is not everything" Yeah...but, "Everything costs money"

I did some research last night on legal immigrants entering the country. They have to have a sponsor that agrees to support them until they can get on their feet.
Would you consider this a handout?
...after realizing that you cannot just enter this country without having guaranteed assistance from family or a friend, I have concluded that assistance, handout or help is something that all humans may need at some point and time.

I will agree with these conservatives on a few things.
1.)a plan to get off the system does have to be formulated.
2.)Welfare should not become a way of life...ever.
2.5)too many babies...no ok either

Liberal points
3.)The jobs must be there. Low pay is not acceptable.
4.)Detroit and Dearborn is an argument that is tough to beat...however, the numbers show that southeastern Michigan (the blue collar part under age 50 is in bad shape) is in terrible shape due to the lack of the auto industry.
5.)clean up where you stay

6.)without those jobs, crime will be there...period. depression, lack of hope and desperation will flourish.

7.)I will say that using a people for the purpose of cheap labor will come back to haunt you as we have seen in this country with slavery. If you really have no other use for those human beings other than to work for you and their culture does not interest you or their way of life, you are going to have problems later.

Mexicans?? Right now everybody loves the cheap labor...when they start demanding a bigger piece of the pie it will be a problem as well. People walk around right now thinking that Mexicans are "happy" to get $10 per hour and they will live 10 people to an apartment and that is cool because it is their culture....NO! They are just doing what they have to do for now. Remember their children are born here and they will be looking for grants to go to school and higher paying jobs and everyone will be upset when they want more money for their labor. Then all of a sudden...they will be all types of menaces and everybody will hate them because they are forgetting their place in society.
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Kaptansolo
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Post Number: 71
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Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 8:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"tryin 2 stay"

where did this happen?
where were you working?

I think that would be a nice thing to do Karl, taking something off one's rent for accepting personal responsibility.
So you really think there are a lot of landlords who would do that?
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Karl
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Post Number: 9225
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Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 9:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can only speak for myself - and I was more than happy to do it. Tenants with a sense of pride often stay for many years. My parents had one for 25 years, and she got approx 20% off her rent. It was worth it - she cared for her place as if it was hers, and seldom asked for anything - she was easy on the place, so things didn't break, need painting or wear out. We went out of our way to keep her happy, and she always was grateful. It was a great relationship, and profitable on both sides.
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Kaptansolo
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Post Number: 74
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Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 10:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You know Karl...I guess what I am saying is it sounds as if you came from a decent background. I mean you have owned rental property and your parents had "tenants".
How would you play it if you had not had the resources you had?

Sometimes I think that people who have had it good(even if they came from working class backgrounds) take a lot of things for granted. Usually their beginnings.
Maybe a parent co-signed for a car or helped with the down payment on a home shortly after they got married. Nothing wrong with these handouts or loans from your family but...those who do not have those resources have a very hard time getting themselves established and there is almost no room for error.

I remember a buddy talking to another friend of mine who was moving out on his own, he was 19 and he said he had no bad credit, but nothing established and this other friend, "Mr. What the fuck" was saying all you have to do is get someone to co-sign for your apartment and you are in.
All easy huh? He did not have that resource and a lot of times I think people really don't know how difficult that can be. Here's an inner city kid who just needed a chance and no kids, no drugs, no criminal record and working at a restaurant. What would you have done?
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Kaptansolo
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Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2007 - 10:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I mean just think of the knowledge you learned about being a landlord when you were a child because you grew up with it.
Your less fortunate inner city counterpart of today would not know the things you knew about business at a young age like that and therefore would not have the same advantages you did...this is not your fault and I am not saying this is a reason to go and sell drugs or kill someone.
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Michigan
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Username: Michigan

Post Number: 927
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Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 8:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kap- Karl is right. There is NOTHING that is worse for a land lord than bad tenants. And nothing better than a tenant like tryin. The idea is that the money yu lose on rent is more than made up for in savings on house damage and time spent dealing with nuisances.
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Pam
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Username: Pam

Post Number: 2247
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Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 9:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.detroitblog.org/?p= 498
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Michigan
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Username: Michigan

Post Number: 929
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Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 10:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

cool pam
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Meaghansdad
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Username: Meaghansdad

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Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 2:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

your or you're?
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Detroit_stylin
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Username: Detroit_stylin

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Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 2:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let's see 11 posts between mine and his and yet apparently mine was the only one to bite him int he ass...

Musta struck a nerve and the pain is screaming truth eh ex?
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Buyamerican
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Username: Buyamerican

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Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ex, those who throw stones shouldn't live in glass houses.
Check out post 22, 26, 28 and 35.
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Gmich99
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Username: Gmich99

Post Number: 222
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Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 5:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Buyamerican apparently lives in a house without windows.
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Buyamerican
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Username: Buyamerican

Post Number: 124
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Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 5:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Excuse me? I was pointing out that we ALL can make mistakes. Let me correct my joke...
people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Okay?
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Gmich99
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Post Number: 224
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Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 5:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Buyamerican- I think it was understood.
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Trying_2_stay
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Username: Trying_2_stay

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Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 6:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Karl, I tried hard and I only worked at Taco Bell at the time. I did have a son and was only on welfare for 6 mos until I got a better paying job, which I begged for and I paid my rent on time. Not only did I do the yard work but I painted (asked first), and put down a new floor in the kitchen. Now that I have my own home I do all my own repairs and I teach my kids the same thing. Kap, I appreciated what I had because I worked to get it. That's why I took care of it like it was mine. Most of my money was spent on rent and my son who was handicapped.I was there 5 years until I got married and moved out.
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Kaptansolo
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Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 7:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was not disagreeing with Karl. I agree a tenant like that is a joy. Trying_2_stay I was just wondering mathematically how it was done? You did admit to welfare (which some on here) not necessarily Karl, act as though to need help is like blasphemy.
I get the point about working for what you have and the pride and appreciation.
I don't know...I think you have a success story and I think I was a very lucky young man. I do not think that I am the majority. I just see a lot of what I consider unfair comparisons when people look at those who are struggling.

I will think about what you have said.
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Trying_2_stay
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Username: Trying_2_stay

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Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 9:27 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kap that is true and sometimes I do the same thing even though I struggled. I think we all get on our high horses after we get to the point where we don't need help anymore. I have had my ups and downs like anyone else. Lost a child, lost a husband but never gave up. Yes I sometimes get the attitude that nothing is owed to people who are out here begging on corners...but then I think but for the grace of God there go I.
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Michigan
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Username: Michigan

Post Number: 943
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Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 10:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Trying said- " but for the grace of God there go I."

Those are words to remember and live by.
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Detroitrunaway
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Username: Detroitrunaway

Post Number: 84
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Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 2:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Try2...

I did the same...when I added color in a funky design to a apartment I rented from a private owner...he loved it so much...he told me to leave the color that way when I moved. He said it was a great contrast to the starch white walls. Every person he showed the apartment to loved it. Not to mention...I left the apartment in turn-key condition. It didn't take him long to rent it out after me. I also, had a sofa (when I first rented) that couldn't fit thru the door. I loved that sofa. Instead of replacing the sofa which would have cost me at least over $600...I paid a local contracter $300 to widen the door. But without his permission. He came by to do some yard work...and notice the start of the project and was pissed. I assured him that it would not stay that way...the rain put off the work. He came back a few days later....saw the work done (not only did they widen the door to the normal standards...but they also exposed the original detail that was covered by planks of wood) he was so impressed. And it saved me at least $300 from not replacing my sofa with a smaller one...that I would've not liked. I picked up trash...which was a lot since I lived right off a high traffic street...but I swept the side walk and walkway every week....plus the elderly lady's front that lived next door.

My point is...I had to live there...and I don't believe in living in filth.
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Trying_2_stay
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Username: Trying_2_stay

Post Number: 16
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 7:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen to that DetroitRunaway, gotta live there make it liveable. My neighbors and myself are fighting to stay and not runaway but when you don't get much help from the city services what do you do.
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Trainman
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Post Number: 496
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 11:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It was Detroit city council that caused the SMART Livonia bus losses. They were sleeping when I was there talking to them. If they were awake and listened then SMART would still be Livonia. They also slept when everyone else talked. Many people were in wheelchairs but when they complained about broken buses the council members never opened their eyes or listened at all. It was sad and I tried to help these people because I really care. I did listen and I took their complaints to Livonia but our city council members were just not interested in helping those who rely on bus service to support the efforts of industries.
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Kaptansolo
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Username: Kaptansolo

Post Number: 87
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 12:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I said in an earlier post that Karl is a good example of a person with resources. He has mentioned that his parents had a good tenant for 25 years.

Let us consider this

Karl then grew up learning about the business of being a landlord. Can you imagine the information he had about the world when he was just 18 due to things his parents may have set up.

Now make the comparison with an inner city kid at 18. He does not have the same outlook or ideas for opportunity. Not that he could not learn...but he does not know where to start. Karl's education began long before he became a man...he was lucky...his counterpart is not so lucky.
We are just talking about information here. I then mentioned other resources, getting credit established, medical insurance and possibly even property being left from the past generation.
Using your example "Trying_2_stay", you had a kid and was on welfare for a short period of time. A young man 18 with no children...where does his insurance come from? How does he get his credit established? Take a good look around and tell me people, without an education...but you happen to have a good work ethic...where can you work in southeastern MI and afford your own place? Let us say that he wants to go to school and work part time, the work he does will he be able to afford his rent and eat too?
A lot of us forget that we were at home while we were struggling to get through school and we did not have the true burden of being totally responsible for ourselves until after we were out of college and working.
My point is this inner city kid will not be at home in that safe environment so he can concentrate on his studies.

It is this situation that I constantly see the conservatives unfairly make comparisons or assume that certain resources are just there.
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Trying_2_stay
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Username: Trying_2_stay

Post Number: 21
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 7:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kap I hear what you're saying. My son is 18 on his way to college but I have gotten him his first credit card and taught him how to manage it. He got a job this summer and I made him pay rent (holding it for him when he leaves for college) and made him pay his credit card bill and cell phone bill. But if I were to die and he had to do it on his own it would be hell right now. He would have to work 2 jobs to pay rent and bills and buy food, how do you go to school while trying to do that? I did tell him that if he didn't go to school that he would go to Bush's army because he couldn't live with me with no job and no way to get one on a high school diploma. A friend of his is not that lucky, he decided to quit school in 12th grade,can't keep a job and calls me all the time to borrow money, I don't think he sees a way out and I think he would be one of the kids that ends up doing something illegal to get money. Unfortunately there are more out there like him and not just black kids either.
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Number1
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Post Number: 15
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Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 9:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kaptansolo

I agree that it would be very tough for the 18 year old young man to make it, but it certainly isn't impossible. He could work 1 or perhaps 2 jobs for 5 or 6 years to save up money for college. This would make him 23 or 24 when he starts which isn't that old.

Here is how I calculated it:

Lets say he looks and finds a job at a fast food place. This shouldn't be too hard since there are plenty of fast food places in the city of Detroit.
If he has a good work ethic he will eventually find a job at one. Lets say he makes $8.00 an hour working 8 hours a day and seven days a week. This will lead to a salary of around $23,296 a year. After taxes lets say he has $19,000. This leaves him with about $1583 dollars each month. He could live off of $1300 each month if he is very disciplined. This could pay for a VERY small studio apartment and utilities. It could even pay for a single person health insurance plan although it wouldn't be a very good one. He could use the bus to get to his job.

Next he could open a savings account and put about $250 dollars into it each month. In 6 years this will become $18000. This is definitely enough money to start going to college. This does not even account for the fact that he could work 2 jobs at the same time (not too hard for a healthy 18 year old young man). He also has the chance to be promoted to assistant manager, especially if he has a strong work ethic.

By age 29 this guy could be making 50k a year and move to the suburbs, if he majors in something like engineering. He wouldn't be too far behind people that had far easier lives than him.
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Trying_2_stay
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Username: Trying_2_stay

Post Number: 23
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Saturday, August 11, 2007 - 2:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Number1 the problem is that these kids can't get jobs in the fast food restaurants because older adults are taking all of them, especially since the minimum wage has been raised. You want them to work in a fast food restaurant for 6 years while catching the bus and saving all of his money to pay for college to get a job in say engineering where he could possibly not find a job. Do you know how many engineers are out here without jobs? Although this is probably workable I would say that he should work while taking classes even if part time to make some kind of dent in his college education not wait until he's 26 - 27 to start college. Just a thought.
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Kaptansolo
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Username: Kaptansolo

Post Number: 102
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Saturday, August 11, 2007 - 10:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Trying_2_Stay...but I am not going to use your argument even though I agree with you.

I will only say this...Number1's idea would work if according to the numbers.
I guess what I am about to say is where all conservatives are going to hate me.

That is just too damned long. Too much pressure to do something illegal to make money. I personally do not think I would make it that long if it was me. No girlfriend, no life at all. Even on the,"ok...I'm going to live with the bear minimum"...that is tough, not impossible but tough. The condition of the "studio" you were talking about and...well...me, I know, I would be looking for illegal means after the first year.

However, I cannot argue with numbers...it does seem mathematically possible.
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Royce
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Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 3:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The dilemma between painting your house that needs paint or buying "spinners" for your ride is this: you can't drive a house. Too impractical for the image. More important to be seen in a suped-up ride with spinners than to have people drive by your nice looking house. When you're inside you'll never know when they're looking.:-)
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Kaptansolo
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Username: Kaptansolo

Post Number: 104
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Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 10:29 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Royce has researched the psychology behind the phenomenon and I agree.

I would say those who are buying spinners are not thinking much past 30 years old. This is true of many inner city children and young adults, they are not taught to think that far into the future.
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Trying_2_stay
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Username: Trying_2_stay

Post Number: 26
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 11:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Unfortunately I would have to agree with Royce too. My 18 y/o son who is going to college in 2 weeks is into that phenom also. His big thing is when he graduates and gets a really good job after buying a house his next big think on the agenda is a car with rims and racing strips. although I am glad he wants to finish college first his priorities are a little helter skelter. I am going to keep talking to him and his friends to tell them that investing is the way to go...... Gotta keep pushing to change the mentality of young people. If you don't who will?
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321brian
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Username: 321brian

Post Number: 408
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Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 12:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Go easy on your kid.

Buying a house in this market isn't much of an investment anyway.
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Trying_2_stay
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Username: Trying_2_stay

Post Number: 30
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 1:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

321 I don't agree with that I have a lot of friends make money from investing in the housing market in Detroit, even if it is in renting. But that wasn't the type of investing I'm telling my son to do, I meant in the stock market.
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Eric_w
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Username: Eric_w

Post Number: 283
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 3:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lot's or replies here-YES is the answer. After the riots solid working & middle class neighborhoods went down the tubes. Homeowners left and and were replaced by low class renters with little pride in the places they lived in. Result? Urban decay in epic proportions. I have observed a transient life style of many Detroiters- they often move from house to house to house. Never staying in a location very long. I believe it's to escape paying their rent. Where I work a number of people have had wages garnished for non-payment of bills and rent.Funny they often have dough for eating at McDonald's and buying flashy clothes. When I lived in Detroit I met several people that owned rental houses and they're biggest problems were rent scofflaws-They could not find decent responsible renters that would not tear up their houses and would actually pay rent. There were several times in my stay on one block that the Sheriff's came and evicted people dumping all the furniture in the street.
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Tponetom
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Username: Tponetom

Post Number: 102
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 11:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit Unions. Politicians, and Corporations.
To which group would you entrust your future retirement investments. A Union? A Corporation? Or Congress?

Prologue:
I am more than a little bit groggy eyed after reading the posts in, “Should Detroit residents take some of the blame for the inner city decay.? There were many pertinent ‘posts’ that were valid in their content, about many different aspects of the demise of Detroit. But I did not read any that dealt with the question at hand. That being , Inner City Decay.!
I will not make an attempt to address that question at this time . I will kibitz on some of the statements made.
Kaptansolo, Karl, Buyamerican and others made many good assessments, so I will add my 22 cents worth. Back in 1940 that would be 2 cents.
I am equating “Inner City Decay” with the demise of the working people who were the backbone of the inner city.
Re: Henry Ford. Yes, this man did much for the industrial fortunes of our country, and Detroit in particular, but there is a caveat not mentioned. The brothers, Walter and Victor Reuther should also be exalted for creating a level playing field as to how the wealth of the automobile industry should be distributed. Victor got shot in the face for his efforts. Gee, I wonder who the shooters were employed by!

Jimmy Hoffa. Did you ever see the mansion that this guy lived in? I think it had three bedrooms and maybe two bathrooms. Think of all those loans his Teamsters Union made to build Las Vegas. Today, that poor crummy ass town is falling apart. They keep tearing everything down in order to build something bigger.. But that is not my point. If you bad mouth Jimmy, to some of the old teamsters, they might hand you your head .

The restructuring of Detroit is solely in the hands of the people who inhabit it. I have read hundreds of ‘posts’ about the successful development of the downtown section. But I wonder how many of them know what it was like (and I am loathe to use the phrase) in the good ole days.?
Imagine any Saturday morning around 9 or 10 o’clock. The E. Warren bus dumps its load at Hudson’s front door about every three minutes or so.. The Gratiot, Michigan and Woodward streetcars do the same at different venues. The pedestrian traffic on Woodward avenue, from the river, north to the Fox theater or thereabouts, is four or five abreast, going either way and artful dodging is automatic. No cussing or foul language or Dirty looks. Exits and entrances to any store were managed with a smile so as not to disturb the rhythm of the pedestrian flow of traffic. Automobile traffic was sane. The signal lights at the cross streets were rigidly adhered to. When the light turned green, you could walk across the street with a good chance of making it to the other side. The word, ‘shopping’ was a euphemism of sorts. Many times you only had 20 cents in your pocket when you left your house. 10 cents to get there and 10 cents to get back. Window shopping was often the ‘zest for life? (Any Frenchman in the crowd to translate?) All of those people came,,,,,from the inner city.
P. S. Say, whatever happened to the Molly Maguires and John L. Lewis, now that we need them.?
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 2897
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Sunday, August 12, 2007 - 11:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Molly Maguires
John L. Lewis
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Lefty2
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Username: Lefty2

Post Number: 18
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 9:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I Don't Care!
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Fareastsider
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Username: Fareastsider

Post Number: 535
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 10:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tponetom, people always say that society is getting worse. I have always felt that it may seem like that at any time and that it is all sort of relative. What would you say are some strengths and weaknesses in our societies from 1945-1955 say compared to today???

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