  Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2889 Registered: 11-2003 |
Check out Channel 7 tonight to see a report that is sure to make you utterly disgusted with the how the military awards contracts, and how our senior senator just flat out doesn't give a damn. Reader's Digest version: The Marine Corps was looking to issue a contract for an armored personnel vehicle that can be delivered by the VS-22 Osprey. The company that is in the "lead" has delivered a prototype that does not meet specs (i.e. no armor) and is over budget. The Detroit-based company delivered a prototype that did meet specs and was under budget. Why did we lose out? The former is owned by a former marine who doesn't know squat about building anything, yet has contacts in the Pentagon. The Detroit-based company is getting the runaround, and Sen. Levin throws a hissy-fit when asked about it. Nice work supporting local business, Sen. Levin. | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 1089 Registered: 11-2003 |
Mcp.... just a question... besides Channel 7, what is your source of information on this topic? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3586 Registered: 10-2004 |
Levin was on WJR's Smith AM show today. He had a hissy fit over Cheney--said he hated him. Wow! What insight! | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2890 Registered: 11-2003 |
Set your DVR to find out. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 1305 Registered: 12-2006 |
That was just weird. The 6:00 news had part of that and it was just messed up. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2530 Registered: 06-2004 |
Levin's not really in a position to do a lot about it - he's not appropriations and he was a minority member until last election. Of all the people in Congress he's one of the ones who worked hardest to avoid invasion and has consistently pushed to get troops out. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2891 Registered: 11-2003 |
Lilpup, he has been in office for nearly 30 years. Do you honestly believe that he doesn't know how to get anything done by now? | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2531 Registered: 06-2004 |
He couldn't get Congress to vote no on Iraq - his alternate proposal to go to the UN first was resoundingly defeated. Only in retrospect has he been given credit for his stance. And you wrote that the other contractor has Pentagon connections - do you want him to stop Halliburton and all the others, too? That's politics - sometimes you're on top, sometimes you're gum on the shoe. He's Cheney's gum. You also indicate that this contract hasn't been awarded yet, so you might be jumping the gun a little. (Message edited by lilpup on August 01, 2007) | ||
Hpgrmln Member Username: Hpgrmln Post Number: 67 Registered: 06-2007 |
My father disagreed with a bill Levin had planned to sign, along with Stabenow. He called Senator Levins office and said "I am a taxpaying citizen. I Do not want this bill passed.Please make a note of that to give to the senator." The woman huffed and said,with obvious irritation in her voice, "Oh, all right". He called Stabenows office. Her representative said "Ok, I'll make sure I put your request in the file". What did this reveal? That Levin surrounds himself and fills his office with other people who work strictly to carry out his agenda and aren't tolerant of opposing viewpoints from voters. His whole agenda seems to be, in my eyes, "anything not clearly left wing and democrat is bad.We must destroy it." This isn't a great service to provide to you're constituents as a whole. Who does he TRULY want to represent? | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2892 Registered: 11-2003 |
Have you seen the prototype yet? The thing looks like a bastardized combo between a mule and a jeep. It lacks any armor at all. And the worst part yet is gunner stands in the open at the rear of the vehicle. The owner of the company producing this P.O.S. (the ex-Marine) replied that it's a safe design, all the gunner had to do was shoot back. The same report also indicated that Reps. Miller & Knollenberg have made inquiries into this contract. It seems a shame that two members with considerable less time in Congress are able to much more than someone who's been there for as long as Levin has. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2532 Registered: 06-2004 |
Making inquiries doesn't necessarily yield results - what HAVE Miller & Knollenberg accomplished? | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2893 Registered: 11-2003 |
The story was just aired today. Just what kind of turn around time were you looking at? | ||
Steve_wilson_wxyztv Member Username: Steve_wilson_wxyztv Post Number: 140 Registered: 01-2005 |
Lilpup...Levin is CHAIRMAN of the Senate Armed Services committee. For five months now he has ducked any discussion about why he hasn't moved to investigate this project that's now over $700 million and hasn't gone into production yet, especially when a Michigan company had, by the Marines' own scoring, a better option that was rejected. Turns out General Dynamics--the company that won the contract with a second-rate vehicle--is near the top of the Senator's list of contributors. Could this be a reason a Michigan senator as powerful as he has not been jumping up and down to see that troops have what they need? More at 11...but, trust me, this one doesn't pass the smell test. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2533 Registered: 06-2004 |
well, considering it all started years ago under Republican watch... but I guess that's beside the point when Levin bashing, isn't it? especially when everything Levin's done was with the intent of getting troops OUT and FWIW you might want to go back and look at the history of the Osprey, too, if you want something to bitch about (Message edited by lilpup on August 01, 2007) | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 1343 Registered: 04-2006 |
why the hell is this in Discuss Detroit? Don't give me 'he is the Senator' crap. This is partisan politics hate speak from both sides of the aisle. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2894 Registered: 11-2003 |
Doesn't anyone watch the news on TV anymore? | ||
Ddaydave Member Username: Ddaydave Post Number: 491 Registered: 04-2005 |
Detroitplanner these are local companies just like ford Chrysler and G.M. .. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 2810 Registered: 12-2005 |
Real news isn't watched. It's read. Hell, you're reading this now.  | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 966 Registered: 10-2003 |
Levin is not a friend of Detroit or this country. This appears to be the direct affect of spending too much time in Washington over the last 30 years. One of the reasons that he is upset right now is due to his attempts to pull troops from Iraq in the midst of a surge campaign that continues to show increasing success by our soldiers (as reported by none other than the NY Times). This has made him look even more the fool for the public to view and he doesn't appear to appreciate the timing of the news. I have to say that my very limited contacts with his and Debbie Stabenow's offices show very different approaches to constituents. Most on this site know that I am significantly on the other side of the aisle from both of our Senators. That said, I have found Sen. Stabenow unafraid to break with Sen. Levin on measures of national importance and significantly, much more responsive to explaining the how and why of her position. Levin's office has been less than responsive to very polite and professional requests to consider alternative viewpoints held by his constituents. The sense of disdain for the citizens that he purports to represent emanates with a stench. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2534 Registered: 06-2004 |
lol, sucks to be in the minority, doesn't it? Levin is actually pretty moderate. Moderates are odd men out in both parties right now. Extremist partisans are running over those who have the experience and wisdom carried forward from an earlier era. Next election vote moderate, whichever party, and maybe the country can start running again. (Message edited by lilpup on August 01, 2007) | ||
Gplimpton Member Username: Gplimpton Post Number: 65 Registered: 05-2007 |
You get the feeling there are more stories out there like this...that we don't know about. Good reporting Steve. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 5008 Registered: 08-2004 |
Well Mcp001, you said that the story aired today, which I saw on TV. Steve Wilson was in Levin's face, as is usually the case for whomever he approaches. So how can you make judgements about Knollenberg and Miller, as well as Levin... all based on a Steve Wilson reporting story. Carl Levin is the Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee. Not sure just how much his involvement was or is, but he would be foolish to put his head in the sand on this one, since it would come back to haunt him at his next election. Let's give this story some more time to play out before being so judgemental. I don't believe in basing too many opinions on sensational journalism, nor would I equate Levin's response to Wilson in any way as not supporting local businesses. (Message edited by Gistok on August 02, 2007) | ||
Jiscodazz Member Username: Jiscodazz Post Number: 39 Registered: 02-2007 |
Steve Wilson is a hack! That's why he's a local news investigator(which is usually a joke) and not on 60 Minutes. Anyone? | ||
Themax Member Username: Themax Post Number: 815 Registered: 09-2005 |
So if a journalist is not on "60 Minutes", s/he is a hack. That makes all but 5 TV journalists hacks. The Repugnants have been the majority party for the past 5 years. Now that the Dems have a slim to nonexistent majority, you want to fob off the responsibility for years-old military contracts onto the Dems. But that's Bush's game, do the crime and blame someone else. Google "Bush + pathological liar". And no one is saying that things are going so well in Iraq that we won't have to have our military there for at least another five years. Another revolting development the Republicrites have gotten us into! I'm glad I don't have anyone in the military. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 967 Registered: 10-2003 |
The military are glad that you are not in their family! | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 4033 Registered: 10-2003 |
In answer to DetroitPlanner, this is Detroit related because General Dynamics is a big player here in the D and this is a vehicular related military issue. I saw Steve's report and did not find it particularly informative. For starters, the elephant in the room was ignored. The real reason American soldiers are getting killed in Iraq is because a certain misguided president sent them into a country that had nothing to do with 911 or the other excuses that have since been shown to be lies, all with inadequate equipment and force protection. Not one American soldier has been killed because the merits of these two vehicles, neither of which has been placed in combat and proven to have failed or succeeded. So all the sad goopy, flag filled footage that larded that report is pure sap for this issue. This issue is really about "What might happen" and to that there is no answer yet. We are treated to hasty clips of two competing vehicles, one which comes off looking like some dorky thing from the thirties, the other [the loser] that comes off looking like a stealth fighter on wheels. But we all know looks can be deceiving. For instance does the engine on the latter fail? Does its low profile not allow it to ford streams and drown its occupants? Many questions, the answers of which we can't know because little of the relative testing data is presented. A little more hard facts and a few less flags and grief-stricken relatives shots might have helped. Amid all the patriotic emotional tugs the biggest tears I saw were from the losing investors, would be smaill-time war profiteers who lost out to big-time war profiteers. At least they were clever enough to attract a half-baked investigation. I don't know who is right or wrong because there is not enough substance in that report to begin to form an opinion. Certainly if Levin, or anyone, was the deciding force in selecting a ~proven~ inferior vehicle over another for personal gain, he should be thrown out of office. But there is absolutely nothing to confirm that in this oversimplified emotional report. Time to stop chasing "kinda, maybe, what if" diversions to the real reasons our kids are dying. So how about instead doing something that will aid Detroit directly, like blowing the lid on the insurance redlining? | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 1038 Registered: 12-2005 |
quote: Are you talking about SENATOR Levin? If so, which of the following Senator Levins did you have in mind? The Senator Carl Levin, who on the the floor of the Senate on Oct. 9, 1998 stated, "It is my sincere hope that Saddam Hussein, when faced with the credible threat of the use of force, will comply with the relevant UN Security Council Resolutions. But, I believe that we must carefully consider other actions, including, if necessary, the use of force to destroy suspect sites if compliance is not achieved." and who that same day signed a letter to President Clinton urging military action against Iraq, saying "We urge you . . . to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraq sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." and who on Dec. 17, 1998, issued a statement supporting President Clinton's decision to bomb Iraqi weapons sites, saying "I support President Clinton's decision to undertake military operations against Iraq. President Clinton had no alternative because Saddam Hussein has left the world no alternative. and who during a Senate Armed Services Committee meeting on Sept. 19, 2002 said, "We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." and who on the Dec. 10, 2002 "NewsHour" told Jim Lehrer that "We should be hell bent on getting those weapons of mass destruction" Or is it the Senator Levin who in a June 15, 2003 Detroit News Op-Ed piece accused the Bush Administration of shading, exaggerating and overstating intelligence information? Which Sen. Levin is it? - the one who on June 16, 2003 told Jim Lehrer that "we were told by the intelligence community that there was a very strong link between al Qaeda and Iraq" or the Sen. Levin who told John Gibson of Fox News in February of 2004 that "the intelligence didn't say there is a direct connection between al Qaeda and Iraq" Over the past four years, the flip-flopping Sen. Levin has stepped up his hypocritical attempts to discredit the Bush Administration over Iraq. His total focus seem to be on the politicization of the war and he has seemingly lost touch with the everyday concerns of his Michigan constituents. "Moderate" is the last adjective that comes to my mind when I hear the name Carl Levin. If you had written "Levin is actually pretty obsessed", I would have agreed with you. | ||
Kslice Member Username: Kslice Post Number: 129 Registered: 04-2007 |
well said Lowell. I really dont feel I have enough info on this to say one way or the other. Levin has stood up for Michigan before and I find it hard to believe he wouldn't continue to do so. BRING THE TROOPS HONE! | ||
Innovator Member Username: Innovator Post Number: 72 Registered: 07-2006 |
'Which Sen. Levin is it? - the one who on June 16, 2003 told Jim Lehrer that "we were told by the intelligence community that there was a very strong link between al Qaeda and Iraq" or the Sen. Levin who told John Gibson of Fox News in February of 2004 that "the intelligence didn't say there is a direct connection between al Qaeda and Iraq" ' ********** You can't see that these two statements are completely reconcilable? I'll break it down for you. Senator Levin was correct in asserting that the *intelligence* showed no link between Iraq and Al Qaeda. He was also correct in saying that the *intelligence community* asserted a link, one we now know was completely false and was basically forced upon the CIA by the administration who wanted to cherry-pick the intelligence. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2538 Registered: 06-2004 |
this Levin: http://www.iht.com/articles/20 07/03/01/opinion/edchaffee.php "We must not sidestep the fact that a sensible alternative did exist, but it was rejected. Candidates — Democrat and Republican — should be called to account for their vote on the Levin amendment." ~Lincoln D. Chafee, Republican senator from Rhode Island from 1999 to 2006 | ||
Philm Member Username: Philm Post Number: 32 Registered: 03-2005 |
"One of the reasons that he is upset right now is due to his attempts to pull troops from Iraq in the midst of a surge campaign that continues to show increasing success by our soldiers....." What fantasy world are you still living in? as for disdain for our troops, there is none more pronounced than that shown by this President and the criminals in his administration...simply by sending them there, ill equipped, and with no plan | ||
Eec Member Username: Eec Post Number: 107 Registered: 06-2007 |
Levin's votes on the Iraq war have, in every case that I'm aware of, been respectful of our troops and in their best interests. I'm not going to say I think highly of career politicians in general, but the guy's voted in the best interests of most of the people he represents. As for the staffers at his office, my wife talked to one of them a few weeks ago about getting her passport renewed when a delay seemed likely to cause us to cancel a trip. The staffer she dealt with was EXTREMELY polite and helpful, and the passport went from a projected delay of a week or more to arriving in the mail the next day. Absolutely no complaints with Levin. Of course, he is a Democrat. Those who form their opinions based on party affiliation alone are going to react positively or negatively to that, depending. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2895 Registered: 11-2003 |
Well to answer your question, Gistok: Miller and Knollenberg were interviewed on camera and didn't behave like a petulant child when asked a direct question. Rep. Knollenberg indicated that this deserved investigating and Rep. Miller indicated that this might be something to have the GAO look into. Sen. Levin was evasive, and I'd go as far to say combative, when interviewed on camera...especially when the GD connection came up. Lowell's comments above also got me wondering, why take issue with only the President? Congress had a hand in Iraq as well, as indicated in the quotes above and by their authorization of force resolution prior to our little sojourn there. | ||
Ro_resident Member Username: Ro_resident Post Number: 261 Registered: 11-2003 |
Wow, what a colossal screw-up. The combat vehicle that has to fit through the 5' by 5' hatch of the V-22 Osprey. Of course it is going to have problems rolling over, being so narrow. Producing armor for the American Growler is a tough bill. It is essentially a red herring for the vehicle to use conventional steel and ceramic armors. The spec of the V-22 Osprey only allows 2,450 lbs per axle for loads. After loading a couple Marines, fuel, and ammunition, that doesn't leave much weight for conventional (read: cheap) armor for the Growler (or any other design). And, there is always the question if the Osprey is ever going to be deployed after numerous mishaps. A few links: http://www.boeing.com/rotorcra ft/military/v22/v22spec.htm http://www.nationaldefensemaga zine.org/issues/2005/Dec1/Ospr eys_Cargo.htm (<--read this one for the limitations) http://www.militaryphotos.net/ forums/archive/index.php/t-741 87.html | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 4037 Registered: 10-2003 |
"... why take issue with only the President? Congress had a hand in Iraq as well, as indicated in the quotes above and by their authorization of force resolution prior to our little sojourn there." I agree that there was congressional complicity in this disaster however your statement should read "some in congress" had a hand in Iraq. Levin was not one of them. He voted against the war authorization. The president through control and selection of classified information, much of which later was exposed to be selective or outright lies, was able to influence congressional votes. The old "we know something you don't know, but we can't tell you why because it is 'secret'". | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 7 Registered: 07-2007 |
Levin sucks, StabMeNow sucks, Granholm sucks! Michigan voters are getting exactly what they deserve. Losers electing losers. | ||
Hagglerock Member Username: Hagglerock Post Number: 432 Registered: 03-2005 |
a little off topic, but relevant to government spending: Ro_resident, The Osprey will be seeing real action sometime this fall. All eyes are on it and the program to replace the USMC's inventory of CH-46's and a squadron of CH-53D in Hawaii (my bird) rests on its' success. Ask most involved with Marine aviation today and you'll find they don't have much confidence nor faith in the platform ( however the V-22 pilots think it's god's gift to the Corps). While it's amazing in design, the reality is it would take all the stars and planets to align in order for it to be as successful and versatile as the Corps’ current rotary wing inventory. Take for example: it's shipboard maintenance issues, poor component lifetime and the fact it's a 100 knots faster than our current armed escort the, Cobra and Huey, make it a hard fit into the close knit organization that makes up a Marine Air Ground Task Force.(MAGTAF for short) I really hope Bell and the Marine Corps can make it work, but from the decades of testing and billions of dollars spent trying to make the V-22 work, I wouldn't be surprised to see my platform, the CH-53D, (bought by the Marines in 1969-1972) to be extended while the we search for a replacement medium lift airframe. After all, we were supposed to be flying Ospreys in 1997, can you see a trend? D | ||
Gplimpton Member Username: Gplimpton Post Number: 66 Registered: 05-2007 |
What bizarre postings from a few of you. 1) "Hey, we shouldn't be in Iraq anyway! This isn't an issue!" Huh? Regardless of your stance on the war, what's clear is that we'll be there until at least 2010, and likely longer. This vehicle is scheduled to be on the ground far before then...therefore putting our troops at what could be a huge risk. I mean, the thing had no doors! 2) "Steve's report has no substance" Umm...did you even watch it? He obtained the Marine's own internal evaluations, he talked to the guy in charge of the thing, he talked to the company that competed against it, he talked to two members of the House and one of the Senate, he obtained information about a rollover crash when the thing tried to miss a turtle..... It's obvious you made up your mind BEFORE watching the stories. Why? I can't figure that one out... (Message edited by gplimpton on August 03, 2007) | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 968 Registered: 10-2003 |
New Zogby poll numbers are out: The Democratically controlled Congress has a 3% approval rating on their handling of the war. Levin and his ilk appear to be receiving a bit of response from the electorate for their disdain. | ||
Steve_wilson_wxyztv Member Username: Steve_wilson_wxyztv Post Number: 141 Registered: 01-2005 |
I always appreciate and sometimes even agree (grin)with Lowell’s thoughtful comments on this board but this time I think you’ve missed the mark friend…and not just because you misunderstood or decided my reporting was “pure sap,” “over-simplified and emotional,” and only a “half-baked investigation.” I’ve always said I’m not about honest criticism but these pieces were FULLY baked. Please consider these points: I didn’t ignore the elephant in the room (the fact you say we should not be in Iraq in any event). This wasn’t a story about that elephant, it was story about some other animals screwing up the jungle. You say nobody has yet died in either vehicle and the issue is about “what might happen.” No, the issue is about what HAS happened—the military has spend upward of $700 million tax dollars to acquire a vehicle its own evaluations show is second-rate and still unable to meet specs and got into production three years later. We detailed a couple of the “threshold requirements” which the Growler still cannot meet—and laid out more, including the scores for each, in a earlier report. Meanwhile, we showed conclusively that another vehicle—which happened to be designed in Detroit—DID meet the specs and could have been protecting American troops by now, had the Marines not opted to make and stand by a poor decision that is evidence of the “good ol’ boy network” and who-you-know, not what-you-know procurement procedures. Finally, I think we well documented how the Marines, trying to justify what’s been done, have taken to misleading and outright lying to the Congress. Yes, Lowell, there were a few flags and grief-stricken relatives but that’s at the heart of THIS story, not just some taxpayers taken for a few more bucks. Insurance redlining in Detroit is important—and we’re working on that, too, as I promised we would—but that issue, important as it is, will only cost consumers some money—what’s happening with the Growler is costing lives. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 850 Registered: 11-2005 |
<i>Real news isn't watched. It's read.</i> Amen, brother! Take it to the bridge! Good Gawd! Testify! Broadcast sucks (except NPR). Reel news isn't real news. (Message edited by rhymeswithrawk on August 04, 2007) | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 851 Registered: 11-2005 |
Hey, Steve-o, How was the flight from Florida to D.C. to do this piece? Gotta love those who "stand up" for a city or metro area but refuse to live there. And you complain about Levin not doing right by Michiganders? Puh-leaze. Don't you have truly corrupt politicians in Florida, where you live, that you can worry about? | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 5017 Registered: 08-2004 |
Who cares where others live? Do all Red Wings, Tigers, Lions and Piston team members live in metro Detroit? No! So why do you care where Steve Wilson (or anyone else for that matter) lives?? That makes no sense whatsoever.... | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2896 Registered: 11-2003 |
It's just a red herring, Gistok. Too may posters are more angry at the fact that their boy, Sen. Levin is looking bad, and would rather go after the messenger, than the fact that we're been shaken down for several hundred million on a project that doesn't do what it needs to. | ||
Steve_wilson_wxyztv Member Username: Steve_wilson_wxyztv Post Number: 142 Registered: 01-2005 |
And just for the record, Rhymeswithrawk, (though it's none of your business but I just wanted to show how silly your remark really is): I spent TWO days in the month of July in Florida and flew Detroit Metro to and from DC. In fact, that was me sitting in the row just behind the senior senator on the Friday afternoon flight last week. And no, I didn't get in his face on the airplane--he apparently never knew I was around until in the terminal after the flight. |
