  Spaceboykelly Member Username: Spaceboykelly Post Number: 244 Registered: 04-2005 |
The NY Times online has reported that foreign automakers outsold Detroit's Big 3 for the first time ever last month. Detroit is Outsold by Imports in U.S. This comes after a string of positive articles about (one or two of) the Big 3... I believe one or two of the three companies have rebounded and reported profits. While this sounds like bad news for Detroit I can't help but wonder if this is just the necessary evolution of the car market. It seems as if the Big 3 must shrink themselves somewhat in order to survive in the contemporary world. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2528 Registered: 06-2004 |
Hey, let the competition have the low- to no- profit fleet sales. It will also help drag down the residual values on their products (which, for some stupid reason, people look at as a mark of quality, not quantity). | ||
Russix Member Username: Russix Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2006 |
If Detroit is just now being outsold by imports, the auto industry must be the last industry in the US to be outsold. We export millions to China, but import billions from them. | ||
Civilprotectionunit4346 Member Username: Civilprotectionunit4346 Post Number: 271 Registered: 06-2007 |
Well one of the thing's is the quality really isn't there much on American Products....Especially the Big3....Yes it's a good thing that GM introduced the 100,000 mile warranty. But one reason...they know they aren't at the quality level as the Import Auto Makers. I was just out looking at car's again, as I am pondering a new car purchase, I stopped by this one dealership off of M59/Hall Rd. It was the Honda/Buick/Hummer dealership. I started to browse their lot, let me say this...Honda has caught my eye for a new car. The are getting rid of their end of the yr model civic for 4k less then would sell them. Reason why I like the car is the MPG the car get's on the road, I drive over 40miles a day between home and work. I know folk's on here are gonna come on and say that the money goes to Honda and not to anyone here....reason why I am not attracted to mostly really any of the Big 3's car's lack the fuel efficency and quality that Honda is offering. While I was their and was looking at all the diffrent brand's they had there..buick & hummer where the other 2...First off the Hummer brand is a laughing stock, especially with today's high gas prices. Buick really isn't selling like it used to, now they bring out the atrocity the Buick Enclave...not only is it ugly....the gas mileage on it is a joke as well....from what ive been hearing is that GM is looking to take another one of it's nameplates and end it.....Buick is on that list. I really think the whole SUV craze is coming to an end as some people see the reality of owning one and the fuel cost's of owning and driving one. Call me a Big 3 basher.....the proof is in the pudding...most citizen's of the US are buying import's because of their quality and efficency. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1333 Registered: 12-2003 |
Civil, 1. I think, given your philosophies, that a Honda is an appropriate vehicle for you. 2. Secondly, apostrophes should never be used with a possessive noun. Translation: Folk's are not gonna come on and slam you, but folks will. It's not, "Who let the dog's out." It's "Who let the dogs out." Please. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 1391 Registered: 08-2006 |
"Well one of the thing's is the quality really isn't there much on American Products....Especially the Big3...." Sigh! I guess it's time to start posting the recalls for Japanese cars again. Yes civilprotection unit, pick yourself up off the floor. They do have extensive recall records. You just won't hear about it from our media who loves imports and hates domestic car cos. | ||
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman Post Number: 234 Registered: 02-2006 |
1. Last I saw, there are still lots of Hummers on the road. If you can afford a car payment, you can afford gas. If gas mileage is that important to you, keep your current car and you'll save far more money. 2. Yeah, the quality blows. I've had my new GM vehicle for almost a year and it's got nearly 15,000 miles on it already. I've had to take it into the dealer FIVE TIMES, for OIL CHANGES! Would you believe that? What a piece of junk. 3. When a Honda Civic can tow a boat, haul luggage and three kids on a vacation, the SUV will be dead. Until then, not a chance. 4. In my opinion, Honda has the blandest vehicles on the road, but if that's your style, more power to you. Have you ever worked with any of the domestic automotive companies? I can assure you that their top priority is quality and efficiency. In fact, in my experience, Ford has required ten times the review process that Toyota does for an electronic module supplied for their vehicles. | ||
Jdkeepsmiling Member Username: Jdkeepsmiling Post Number: 289 Registered: 01-2006 |
The standard argument that the Big 3 don;t have quality vehicles just falls flat on it's face today. Take a look at any measure of quality, JD Powers or anything like that and you will find plenty of Detroit iron on the list. It is just outmoded thinking that is preventing people from buying American. If bland style and having the exact same car as every third person in Cali is your thing, then by all means buy one. Just don't use the same old "imports are better quality" argument. It does not reflect reality anymore. I mean just a few weeks ago there was someone bragging about their new Toyota Yaris. This car was recently derided in the Automobile press as being of shoddy quality and unreliable. There are foreign cars that are crappy and American cars that are very reliable, so don't just trot out the same old tired argument, actually do some research before you make a purchase, that is all I ask. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 1471 Registered: 10-2003 |
I think its really unfortunate Americans can't put 2 and 2 together in their head. They wonder why some of their neighbors have no jobs, then give not even a moment consideration to buying the car their neighbors build. There are PLENTY of good, quality American cars. I own one myself. I would think the desire to help out our local economy would outweight a couple of MPGs. (amazing, gas prices go up a tiny bit, and suddenly everybody is an environmentalist? Not judging by the caravans of gigantic SUVs on my morning commute each day.) Everybody on here clamoring to get a major corporation to move their HQ to Detroit, then they don't even support the one that's already there. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1334 Registered: 12-2003 |
"Everybody on here clamoring to get a major corporation to move their HQ to Detroit, then they don't even support the one that's already there." Well put ... | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 486 Registered: 04-2006 |
there is no reason to not buy an American car. - unless you're on the market for a luxury sports vehicle or maybe a hybrid. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1987 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: People buy what they can afford. Recalls do not equate quality and initial quality does not equate to long term quality. | ||
Newport1128 Member Username: Newport1128 Post Number: 78 Registered: 05-2007 |
Any news about how Saturn's "Side-By-Side-By-Side Test Drive" with the Camry and Accord is going? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1269 Registered: 04-2006 |
"Everybody on here clamoring to get a major corporation to move their HQ to Detroit, then they don't even support the one that's already there." Why support a flawed business model? If they make a car that you like better than the others then buy it. If not, then don't. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1740 Registered: 06-2006 |
^I bought a Jeep Grand Cherokee in large part because they are built at the Jefferson plant... why should I give a shit if their business model isn't as efficient as it could be? The product works, looks good and gets me from point A to point B in comfort and style... Sure, there are a lot of imports that could do the same, but they aren't built in Detroit... | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 194 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "Recalls do not equate quality and initial quality does not equate to long term quality." Thats why there are so many old Nissans and Hondas on the road. They are junk built with washing machine technology. Sadly, Detroit stooped to their levels in many areas trying to compete. Ignorance on the consumers part has been the demise of many good products. I'm puzzled why Detroit didn't take a more nuts and bolts approach to advertising. Show people theirs and ours. Instead they opted for a bimbo in a chiffon dress sprawled across the trunk lid in some scenic locale. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 1039 Registered: 12-2005 |
quote: The business model used by a company is a concern of the stockholders, financial analysts, special interest groups, etc. and has no correlation with vehicle quality and performance. Based on what has happened to the Japanese economy over the last fifteen years or so, one could argue that the Japanese "Keiretsu" is a flawed business model. quote: Do you have any statistical data to prove that there is no correlation between vehicle quality and recalls? If a manufacturer cannot maintain statistical process control on the key control characteristics that affect adherence to emissions and Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (which are all flagged as "FMVSS" on the process operation sheets used by the workers and typically accompanied by visual indicators in the workplace), one would suspect that their overall approach to building-in quality is fairly lax. quote: True, some vehicle models stack up better on the long-term quality assessments than they do on the initial quality surveys. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1989 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: No, but using recalls as source of quality discussions is flawed in itself. For example, a 2006 Chrysler 300 has no recalls but has major engine problems at 20,000 miles. Because it has no recalls does that mean it is a tip top in terms of quality? | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 1477 Registered: 10-2003 |
"If they make a car that you like better than the others then buy it. If not, then don't." How about supporting your community? Your neighbors? Your city? Your country? All that should go out the window because you like the headlights on the Accord? Thejesus said: "I bought a Jeep Grand Cherokee in large part because they are built at the Jefferson plant... " The Jeep is a good vehicle, and you got to support your local economy. A win-win situation. The money you spent will indirectly improve your life. You have invested in your community's future, and have a nice vehicle. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1270 Registered: 04-2006 |
How about supporting your community? Your neighbors? Your city? Your country? All that should go out the window because you like the headlights on the Accord? So if I lived in Highland Park, it would be okay for me to buy foreign vehicles? why should I give a shit if their business model isn't as efficient as it could be? The product works, looks good and gets me from point A to point B in comfort and style... My suspicion is that the bolded is your primary reason for purchasing that truck. Where it was built was just the deciding factor between the Jeep and the Explorer (or whatever else you were considering). Btw, patriotic guilt is a horrible idea for a marketing campaign. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 1481 Registered: 10-2003 |
"So if I lived in Highland Park, it would be okay for me to buy foreign vehicles?" I'm missing your logic. Obviously anything that helps Detroit helps Highland Park, and Michigan, and vice versa, and America in general. We do not live in vacuums. And you're right, guilt doesn't work, because nobody feels it. They don't feel it when they buy shoes made by child slaves in China, and they certainly don't feel it buying a car. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1990 Registered: 12-2003 |
But what if they buy those shoes so they can afford to overpay for the car made in Detroit, is that OK? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1271 Registered: 04-2006 |
I'm missing your logic. Obviously anything that helps Detroit helps Highland Park, and Michigan, and vice versa, and America in general. We do not live in vacuums. Have you seen Highland Park? Nobody is helping Highland Park... And you're right, guilt doesn't work, because nobody feels it. They don't feel it when they buy shoes made by child slaves in China, and they certainly don't feel it buying a car. And like that former K Mart employee said... nobody came out en masse to support her when it was her livelihood on the line. So why should she give a damn about buying an American car? Or the other parts of the rust belt whose local economies crashed when it became cheaper for the American auto companies to buy from Asia rather than down the road? | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 1482 Registered: 10-2003 |
Remember you are "overpaying" for that car because that company chose to take care of its employees for years and years with healthcare and good middle-class wages. You are paying for "Generous Motors" to have given your neighbors and family and ancestors a decent standard of living. Others are not bound by these "inconveniences". You will find they can sell cars and shoes much cheaper for it. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 1483 Registered: 10-2003 |
Thats fine guys, I'm done arguing about it. If you'd like to believe your choices of where to spend your money have no impact on the very communuties you live in, and the standard of life in those areas, go ahead and believe that. I suppose when this place is crap, you'll just move to China where the money and jobs are. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1992 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: So I ask again, is it ok for people to buy shoes from a sweat shop in China to save money to buy a car from Detroit. You can not have it both ways. quote: Why should I bankrupt myself for that car to provide overpriced wages and benefits while I have none. The logic of some people just astounds me. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 1395 Registered: 08-2006 |
Cars are fairly priced. Why should a Kia cost the same as a Buick? The Buick is a better car. Last I checked the Tacoma and the Silvarado were comparably priced. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 1484 Registered: 10-2003 |
"So I ask again, is it ok for people to buy shoes from a sweat shop in China to save money to buy a car from Detroit. You can not have it both ways. " My logic astounds you? Your logic has about one MILLION toys made with LEAD in the hands of children. Was it worth saving a few bucks? Do you really think by paying a few more dollars for shoes, you can no longer afford an American car? "Why should I bankrupt myself for that car to provide overpriced wages and benefits while I have none." The people who get that money spend it in your local economy. They have no money, you have no local economy, you have no job either. Don't take my word for it, wait another couple decades. You really think the American economy can survive based on service jobs? And don't bring up high-tech jobs to me, because we're already sending that to India. By the way, I have an American car, and it was NOT that expensive. And it has run great for three years now. Cam said: "Cars are fairly priced. Why should a Kia cost the same as a Buick? The Buick is a better car. Last I checked the Tacoma and the Silvarado were comparably priced." Right, the way they are talking you would think a US car costs twice what a comparable Japanese car costs. Hardly. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 195 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "Don't take my word for it, wait another couple decades." It won't take that long. What little bit of truth is coming through the media lately, home sales are way down all over. The same with vehicle sales. Even Toyota's numbers are down for July. Oil consumption is down for a vacation month. The demand isn't there. The money is drying up. It's economics 101. It amazes me that some folks need it explained to them. It further amazes me that they feel insulated from any damage it will cause the economy in general. | ||
Detroit313 Member Username: Detroit313 Post Number: 420 Registered: 02-2006 |
Well if you ask me, GM has lost its focus on the American market. At least some of it. And for GOOD reason............ CHINA. The land of the dragon really wants this Western culture. Just as GM practically built the American way of life 80 years ago, they see China as the "golden child"! And how can you blame them, if it pays off, Toyota can have 99% of the U.S. market, (which will probably never happen) and if GM can just get 50% of the Chinese market (by the time China has 2 cars per family) they will be able to buy Toyota and the "American Market" back. Can you image GM selling 50 million cars a year in China? I can! Go GM (BTW, I am a GM kid, always have and always will be.) What's good for General Motors, is good for America!  <313> | ||
Dbest Member Username: Dbest Post Number: 40 Registered: 03-2007 |
What I find funny is that nobody can commend these domestic auto makers for the great benefits they have provided? Johnlodge that nickname of "generous motors" is awesome! I was lovin that, anyways I wonder how many of southeast Michigan's best and brightest were afforded an education due to the fact that there parent or parents were paid well by some of these automakers and able to send them to schools like U of M? | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 1490 Registered: 10-2003 |
BTW to all those complaining that US cars are more expensive, lets not forget the Japanese auto industry is subsidized. But you free market capitalists who whine "but our auto makers aren't competitive so who cares if they fail" would have a holy fit if our government was subsizing them. Yet you are more than willing to buy from a company with that same unfair advantage overseas. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1993 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes your logic astounds me, buying shoes from a sweat shop is bad and China is bad, but that is all forgiven if you buy and American Car. quote: Many can only afford a Kia to get to and from work, but fuck 'em they didn't buy American. And that has nothing to do with the current state of the economy. Because no matter the state of the economy there are always people down on their luck. quote: Not expensive to you or me, but to many it is too expensive. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 1040 Registered: 12-2005 |
Too many people fail to make the distinction between costs and price. The Detroit-based automaker's cars are not "overpriced" - if they were, they would be unable to sell them. They have to match or beat the prices commanded by their lower-cost competitor's offerings and they tend to do so using "rebates", 0% financing, etc. However, because their North American structural costs are so out of line, they have a problem making a profit here, unlike their foreign-based competitors. Structural costs are those that do not vary with the number of vehicles built. What makes their situation even worse is that because of the SUB pay and "jobs bank" provisions in their agreements with their unions, the Detroit-based auto manufacturers have effectively turned their labor costs into fixed structural costs. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 1493 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Yes your logic astounds me, buying shoes from a sweat shop is bad and China is bad, but that is all forgiven if you buy and American Car." Sorry, I never said all that was forgiven by buying an American car. "Many can only afford a Kia to get to and from work, but fuck 'em they didn't buy American" The Chevy Aveo is comparably priced to the Kia Rio, which is Kia's cheapest car. So NO, that entire argument is untrue. Also, most people who are having that bad of money problems aren't out buying NEW cars anyway. I could care less what used car people buy, those cars are already here and have very little impact on the bottom line of the auto makers. Anything else? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1273 Registered: 04-2006 |
"Also, most people who are having that bad of money problems aren't out buying NEW cars anyway. I could care less what used car people buy, those cars are already here and have very little impact on the bottom line of the auto makers. " Actually, that's not true. Resale values can deter people from certain brands as well. | ||
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad Post Number: 157 Registered: 02-2006 |
Yes the fricking liars from Asia are selling record amounts of garbage cars. Of course they lie about currency trading. Of course they practice protectionist trading policies. Of course they have bought off more than enough political power so nothing gets done about it. But one day the idiots that buy the crap they sell will wake up and pull their heads out of their butt and see that yes the foreclosure rates are going up at the same rate at the trade deficit is. Buy a Camry but make sure you don't count on impressing anybody with that turd you bought. And don't be surprised that you bought your way into a lower standard of living. | ||
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou Post Number: 1199 Registered: 09-2006 |
Japanese cars suck. There is not ONE car from any of these companies that remotely interest me. Especially when the Big 3 and the Germans produce much better product. Much better. I am going to assume this infatuation will all things Japanese will die out soon enough when what I am saying here becomes much more obvious to the rest of the country. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 196 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote "and if GM can just get 50% of the Chinese market (by the time China has 2 cars per family) they will be able to buy Toyota and the "American Market" back." By the time the Chinese can afford to live like us the US economy as we know it won't exist. It doesn't take a genius to figure out a country of 300 million cannot afford to build a country of 1.3 Billion and not be adversely affected by it. "Globalization" is the big lie. A smokescreen for the groups that are stealing our manufacturing and technology. A few here are getting rich, the rest are going to suffer. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 1400 Registered: 08-2006 |
Another fallacy with Chasing China is the assumption that Japanese cars are not in favor over there. Wrong! Toyota and Honda are gaining market share right along with GM. What has saved GM is all the investment they've done in China in the last 7 years. It's foolish to think the Japs are not going to try to capitalize on China. | ||
Civilprotectionunit4346 Member Username: Civilprotectionunit4346 Post Number: 274 Registered: 06-2007 |
Did I say I was pulling a trailer with the civic I was thinking of buying... I am looking it as a vehicle for back and forth to work....The Saturn Aura is just a Pontiac G6 in another body design. I researched this...go to the pontiac site...and the saturn site. I used to like GM, Ford & Chrysler...Hummer's...I just think people who drive them are bunch of idiots. What is purpose of owning a vehicle that you drive back and forth to work that get's 9mpg...yeah you might have the money for the gas...but damn if I made enough money to pay for gas on that beast...I would spend that money on other then filing it up. Maybe a new Plasma TV??? Most of the Hondas, Toyotas, VW's, Etc that are not domestic vehicles have some real good designs....can't say much for imagination on the some american designs...I admit there is some nice ones out there. One person mentioned that they have 15k on their vehicle right now...wait till it hit's mileage above that. Thats when you'll noticed little thing's going wrong with the vehicle first. If you want to buy a American vehicle more power to you....We are all free to make our own choices. I also choose to review vehicles more and then test drive them to form my own opinions and thoughts. And to the person say that some of the Japanese car's are garbage...ive seen older hondas that have lasted longer then some of the american models. But like I said....it's your choice...Buy what you want to buy.....it's called freedom! Just like this forum is here for everyone to express themselves. But I do advise researching vehicles before you buy them. Their is some really good reivews online of vehicles. Ive noticed CNET is now doing auto reviews now. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 200 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "But I do advise researching vehicles before you buy them." The data you'll find isn't worth the keystrokes it took to write it. There is no way in hell some auto-analyst can predict with any accuracy the service life of a vehicle by simple examination or data provided by the manufacturer which is probably embellished anyway. I don't know how many times I've seen the "car of the year" fail miserably. The Vega was voted car of the year if I remember correctly. Probably the worst American car ever produced. And you're "just wait until it has over 15k miles" warning is total BS. I know people that run fleets, you couldn't give them an asian car. And your claim of seeing old Hondas that lasted longer, were they running or just static displays? I NEVER see old asian cars on the road. I see several old american cars on the road regularly. And if the American cars are so untrustworthy and failure prone as you claim, why don't I see them sitting on the side of the road? A note about "gas mileage". Asian car makers have two concerns, 1)Cheapest build using the least amount of materials to reduce the overall cost/price and keep the weight down (Shipping to American markets). 2)Keep it small to allow as many as possible at one time in the hold of a ship (bound for American markets). The fuel mileage is and always has been welcomed result of these two main considerations. Look back a short distance, these cars were getting 25 MPG back in the sixties, gas was 19 cents a gallon. Was mileage a consideration to the consumer or the carmaker? I think not. So it can be said, Asian cars are designed to ship. That is the main design criteria. All else is secondary. | ||
Wazootyman Member Username: Wazootyman Post Number: 235 Registered: 02-2006 |
I find your condescending attitude ironic, given how you present your argument through poor grammar and punctuation. Many vehicles from the same manufacturer share platforms. It turns out that both the Pontiac G6 and Saturn Aura are successful cars that many people enjoy. What's your point? I drive a Saturn Vue - part of the GM Theta platform. It shares elements with the Pontiac Torrent and Chevy Equinox, but differs quite a bit. Have I mentioned I absolutely love my car? You'd rather buy a plasma TV than pay for fuel for a Hummer. That's fine, but how does that make all Hummer drivers morons? I tend to agree that it's an excessively large vehicle, probably not best suited for trips to the grocery store. I wouldn't buy one. However, that is ultimately a decision for the owner of the vehicle. Not everybody wants an economy car, which was the basis for my towing remark. Do you leave lights on in your house, use air conditioning or a clothes dryer? That's wasted money on energy. Candles, open windows and clotheslines can do those tasks for almost free. Those who live in large houses with $500-600 natural gas bills also must be morons! My small ranch costs worst-case $120/mo. Gas is just another vehicle expense to combine with insurance, registration and financing. Any car is going to have issues as the mileage increases. Even Japanese vehicles. Prior to owning my new vehicle, I drove a 1998 Nissan Maxima which I purchased used from my father. I went through two starters, an alternator, a muffler, radio repairs, warped rotors and I ultimately sold the vehicle when it needed a new flywheel and clutch. It was a good car, but not perfect. No car is perfect. That's excellent advice regarding researching a vehicle before purchase. I would have never thought of that! Too bad a site like http://www.saturnfans.com doesn't exist. Too bad there aren't hundreds (if not thousands) of existing owners discussing their Saturns, both the positives and negatives. The point I'm trying to make is, any educated buyer researches his vehicle. My Maxima had a site too, http://www.maxima.org. Lots of problems discussed, believe it or not. You make a generalization which seems to imply that all American vehicles are the same, and all Japanese vehicles are as well, specifically regarding quality. Both have duds. American companies slipped in quality in the 70's and 80's, but have returned with comparable quality and (in my opinion) superior styling. Like so many people in this country, you seem to imply you are under the opinion that if it's Japanese, it's clearly superior. Anecdotal evidence is great, isn't it? I have a friend who sold his early 90's Ford Escort at 250,000 miles. Last he heard, it's still running just fine. |
