Discuss Detroit » Archives - July 2007 » Detroit's Alternative To Groceries Could Be Wal-Marts « Previous Next »
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 1900
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 12:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://findarticles.com/p/arti cles/mi_m3092/is_1999_Oct/ai_5 7578919

"Wal-Mart's strategy for the new format complements its existing food programs in supercenters and discount stores. Some customers may avoid the large supercenters when seeking a few grocery items, yet discount stores may not offer fresh produce and meat needed for an evening meal. The Neighborhood Market targets that middle ground between the two formats, and it could potentially serve as a vehicle to give Wal-Mart entry into metropolitan areas that lack sufficient real estate for a supercenter."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W al-Mart

"[edit] Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market
Main article: Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market
Wal-Mart Neighborhood Markets are a chain of grocery stores that average about 42,000 square feet (3,900 m˛).[17] They offer a variety of products (including a full-line of groceries, pharmaceuticals, health and beauty aids, photo developing services, and a limited selection of general merchandise).

The first Neighborhood Market opened in 1998 in Bentonville, Arkansas. As of May 31, 2007, there were 118 Neighborhood Markets in the United States.[20]"

"Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market features a full line of groceries including bakery goods, frozen foods, meat and dairy products and fresh produce. It also has a full deli offering rotisserie chicken and a wide variety of fresh prepared foods including sandwiches, salads, desserts, bottled drinks, milk, juices, waters and energy drinks. Cosmetics, toiletries, liquor, stationery, paper goods, pet products and hardware items are also available."

It wouldn't be so bad considering they won;\'t be nearly as big of size as a Typical Wal-Mart and it will provide Detroiters with cheaper Groceries and possibly more varieties in Food Choices, and fresher products.

(Message edited by Urbanize on July 28, 2007)
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 2506
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Posted on Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 1:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

screw that - locally owned neighborhood stores are the way to go - wish I had the $$ to start one
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 1901
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 1:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^^I would love Independent stores, but the ones we have are subpar and the 1 or 2 that are decent only serve so many people.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 2507
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Posted on Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 1:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

great business opportunity for those who have the means
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 1749
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 1:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

in western ny, they have wilson farms, which are neighborhood stores run/owned by tops supermarkets. not a wholey new idea. just imagine the decimation of locally owned business on a smaller, more convenient, scale :-)

(Message edited by gravitymachine on July 28, 2007)
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Ffdfd
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Username: Ffdfd

Post Number: 117
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 9:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^^^
Tops Friendly Markets have people, so you don't have to talk to yourself.
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Kslice
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Username: Kslice

Post Number: 122
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 11:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you ever see me shopping in a Wal-Mart just shoot me right there,

Oh that will happen anyway:D
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 1925
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 11:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm curious to know, did any of you shop at K-Mart?

If that's the case, you were really no better shopping there as you were shopping at Wal-Mart. That's right, but K-MART was Detroit Based.

I don't know if y'all know but Wal-Mart's largest Sam's Club is in Metro Detroit (Utica to be exact).

Again, another double Standard.
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Sharmaal
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Username: Sharmaal

Post Number: 1189
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 11:45 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How is it a double standard? Many folks don't shop at Wal-Mart because they would rather support a local business.

Wasn't K-Mart a local business?
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 2511
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Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 11:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not only was K-Mart local they weren't actively predatory, their employees were union, AND they had more customer service
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 1927
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 11:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok, but you people would shoot the people in Arkansas down for Shopping at a Wal-Mart. It's their local business.

Geez, what Double Standing Soar Nannies. Both Wal-Mart and K-Mart were started by 2 innocent men as nickel and dime stores. They just wanted to start a business to serve the community. As these business grew and became more popular, they expand as well. Now, both of these companies are major Corporations/Monopolies out that only care about the money.

Now, it would not be any more just to not shop at Wal-Mart and shop a K-Mart, as they're both in the game for the same reason.

However, to many, K-Mart isn't nothing but another Wal-Mart or Target.

Supporting Local Businesses would be like supporting Neighborhood retail business not at the corporate status.

I mean come on, why would you not shop at one place, but shop at the other place with the same items being sold and corporate corruption? That's not a double standard to you?

That would be like saying I don't eat much Fast Food but I'll eat The Lafayette Coney Island's Food anyday just because it's in Detroit.
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Patrick
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Username: Patrick

Post Number: 4744
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Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Urbanize pretty much nailed it. Most mom and pop stores are sub-par and limited in their selection...not all, but many. Besides, I highly doubt the people of Detroit are going to piss and moan about (gasp) Wal-Mart. As a matter of fact, most will welcome it.
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 1928
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 11:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Not only was K-Mart local they weren't actively predatory, their employees were union, AND they had more customer service"

You people pick some crack pot stores to shop at then. I always go to Wal-Mart and leave out happily.

Besides, if K-Mart wasn't actively Predatory, then what happened to their competitors such as Zayre's, Woolco's, Woolworths, Ames, etc.?

Everytime I go to K-Mart, I always find their prices to be Highway Robbery, their Stores are always understocked, and even their Customer Service is poor.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 2512
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Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 12:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

now address the other points mentioned

union / non-union

non-predatory business practices / predatory

customer service / warehouse

Target, K-Mart, Meijer's - none are like Wal*Mart
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 1929
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 12:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Besides, if K-Mart wasn't actively Predatory, then what happened to their competitors such as Zayre's, Woolco's, Woolworths, Ames, etc.?

Everytime I go to K-Mart, I always find their prices to be Highway Robbery, their Stores are always understocked, and even their Customer Service is poor."

I'll give you the Unionized stuff, but I will contradict with how K-Mart Abandoned the City of Detroit during the 80s and 90s, along with Target.

I see Wal-Mart had enough Decency to stay true to it's Heritage by Keeping the Original Dime Store open as a Museum, keep every single form of Wal-Mart, and Sam's Club within Bentonville's City Limits, and most importantly, keeping the Main Headdquarters in or near Bentonville, Arkansas. Unlike K-Mart, which ditched heritage and high-tailed first out of Detroit, then to Chicago within 3 Decades.



(Message edited by Urbanize on July 29, 2007)
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 2513
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Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 12:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I see Wal-Mart had enough Decency to stay true to it's Heritage by Keeping the Original Dime Store open as a Museum, keep every single form of Wal-Mart, and Sam's Club within Bentonville's City Limits, and most importantly, keeping the Main Headdquarters in or near Bentonville, Arkansas. Unlike K-Mart, which ditched heritage and high-tailed first out of Detroit, then to Chicago within 3 Decades




as if there's anything else in or anywhere near Bentonville - it's easy for a company to stay when they own everything there

yet the Sam's Club store Wal*Mart moved out of in Westland, across from Westland Mall, has sat as an empty eyesore for five or ten years now
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 1934
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 12:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"yet the Sam's Club store Wal*Mart moved out of in Westland, across from Westland Mall, has sat as an empty eyesore for five or ten years now"

That's no different than Target Abandoning the location at Bel-Air or K-Mart Abandoning the Eastpointe location. I don't see your point.
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Classico
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Username: Classico

Post Number: 36
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 12:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For someone who's name is "urbanize" I wouldn't have expected such a Wal-Mart man crush affair.

You are completely missing the point. Many people do not like Wal-Mart for a magnitude of other reasons. These are the reasons.

The way they do business with Vendors

Where and How they build their stores

The brainwashing-esque code it seems workers have to abide too working there. Especially middle management.(Much more than other similar stores it seems and has been reported)

The fact that people who love Wal-Mart are quick to point out the low prices, but do not realize that in some way, shape, or form you are paying a number that is veiled somewhat. Wal-Mart has some of the most Government subsidies of any business in America. Putting headlocks on vendors and plentiful subsidies are why they can operate the way they do. Or at least how they let you see such a low price consumer end result.

Finally, maybe some people just like Target, Meijer, or whoever else better!! From the clientele of people who work and shop there.....to the way they treat and pay their employees.

This is not to say that these other business have not shared possibly in some of the same tactics over the years, but none of them are as notorious as Wal-Mart. Also Wal-mart is nowhere near the same company when it was "just a diem store" started by Sam Walton. I'm sure he's turning in his grave these days.

Have fun shopping at your Wal-mart, just don't act so fing surprised why others do not share your same excitement.
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 1935
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Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 12:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.albionmonitor.com/0 202a/kmartbankrupt.html

http://www.coopamerica.org/programs/rs/profile.cfm?id=295

http://www.coopamerica.org/programs/rs/profile.cfm?id=251

http://www.coopamerica.org/programs/rs/profile.cfm?id=193


(Message edited by Urbanize on July 29, 2007)
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 2514
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 1:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

you forgot one

http://www.coopamerica.org/pro grams/rs/profile.cfm?id=306&Ma jorSub=1&CompanyName=SAM%27S%2 0CLUB
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 1936
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 1:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^^Actually, I didn't. I figure you already knew so much about them so I didn't bother putting it up.
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 1937
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Urbanize pretty much nailed it. Most mom and pop stores are sub-par and limited in their selection...not all, but many. Besides, I highly doubt the people of Detroit are going to piss and moan about (gasp) Wal-Mart. As a matter of fact, most will welcome it."

Anyway, back to the Main Topic.

Thank You very much Patrick. It will be Close-Minded to think a Wal-Mart wouldn't benefit Detroit in the situation were in. I sure don't see K-Mart or Target or Meijer running in Anytime soon.

(Message edited by Urbanize on July 29, 2007)
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 2515
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Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 2:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

which do you get from them - a paycheck, a dividend check, or an invoice payment?

or you have land to sell?

(Message edited by lilpup on July 29, 2007)
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Classico
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Username: Classico

Post Number: 37
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 2:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your right, most folks in the city would embrace a Wal-mart. They would pretty much embrace any other sprawl inducing out of context establishment as well. In fact if we let people have their way(city and suburban folk) we would probably just raze the entire built environment in favor of some new lifestyle center or 24/7 Hall road experience.

The point is thats not really saying much. I've come to find out in a very short matter of time that people in general will sacrifice quite alot in the name of convenience. Your average person does not care what the dotted landscape encompasses(especially in this metro) as long as their conveniences still rule supreme. I think that line goes...."Give me conveniences, or give me death".

Just to clear something up as well. We definitely need some outlet for folks living in the city to buy everyday needs, that are fresh, and decently priced. Why can't we do this in a more grass roots, sustainable fashion though? Why does all of the cities fixes have to come via Cheesecake factories and Wal-Mart's? There must be other comparable better solutions. If you start going this route you fall in danger of destroying any uniqueness and giving in full blown to convenience wish lists.

Now, you may have a point in that Wal-Mart is at least giving the city the time of day. In that respect I'd tend to agree, but it doesn't mean I start kissing their butt either. They are a business remember. If they changed their business ways, compensated their employees fairly, and were pitching a more "urban" centric establishment within city limits I would have no problem whatsoever. This is not the case though, which is why I can't get too stirred up.

It amazes me how people are so quick to drop all their convictions and standards when they find out they can buy toothpaste 20 cents cheaper somewhere else.
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Patrick
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Username: Patrick

Post Number: 4748
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Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 2:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The way I see it is that the people in Detroit cannot be picky...they cant afford to be since there is little or no places to shop. Wal Mart just may be able to make a positive image for itself by coming into Detroit, the city that other stores abandoned.
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Classico
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Username: Classico

Post Number: 38
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Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 2:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patrick,

I agree, they can't. Which makes a issue like this all the more tricky.

Hell, I might even be willing to say I'd be all for a Wal-Mart moving into the heart of the city if they were to actually do something bold and unique in regards to the design and function of the store. With all the other issues taking a backseat, if it means there is at least some kind of outlet for people and as long as they are happy in just paying the consumer end price. I will admit, people also for the most part don't care how or why they bought those peaches for 10 cents a jar. Subsides or questionable business practices aside. All they know or care about is that they just bought a jar of peaches for 10 cents. Wal-Mart knows this and is why they are successful even with all the shit that has been flung in their face. I gotta give them credit for that I suppose.

The outer edges of Detroit I'm not as concerned about(as far as Wal-marts presence or store design), because those areas are more setup to accommodate a typical Wal-mart dwelling. Plus it will happen regardless I feel. My thing is having a typical dwelling going say...on the Tiger stadium site. Which alto of folks would disturbingly be all for. I just thank God everyday that people like that do not have any capacity in local government or in the planning industry...I hope.
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Romanized
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Post Number: 240
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Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 2:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Walmart isn't predatory, and presents a great opportunity for Detroit. Hope they do decide to invest in the city soon.
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Oldredfordette
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Username: Oldredfordette

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Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 2:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why do you think Walmart is not predatory?
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Spitcoff
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Username: Spitcoff

Post Number: 126
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Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 3:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

walmart is a horrible company did you know that they are the largest employer in out country and 90% of there employees do not even qualify for medical insurance under there corporate policies. Dont shop at walmart
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Urbanize
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Username: Urbanize

Post Number: 1938
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Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 3:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Why do you think Walmart is not predatory?"

AS I said, they're just like any other store in a Capitalist Economy, and you can't blame them for being the Top Dog.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 6292
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Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 3:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

EVIL Wal-Mart must stay out of Detroit, in the matter of fact EVIL Wal-mart must stay out Michigan.

(Message edited by danny on July 29, 2007)
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Detx
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Username: Detx

Post Number: 1
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Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 7:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why does the alternative have to be an out of state corporation like Walmart? I would like to see an instate corporation like Meijers invest in Detroit. I know Meijers has invested heavily and has a huge commitment to the Grand Rapids area, but I can’t think of any of their stores in Detroit proper. It would be nice to see them invest in the largest city in their home state.

I think it would be easier to pitch a downtown or near downtown location to a instate corporation like Meijers because, like most major corporations, they’re surely interested in the development and well being of their home state.

I just don’t think Walmart would care to take a risk on the Detroit market the way an instate corporation would.
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By the way, I’m new here, but I’ve been a long time lurker. I think the fact that this website exits is a testament to how proud and unique Detroit is, and much respect goes out to the site creator, admin, and, of course, all the posters who keep it going and make it interesting. Thanks!
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56packman
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Post Number: 1572
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Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2007 - 11:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Walmart uses its purchasing power to force manufacturers to close up shop in the US and export jobs to China--faster than it is already happening on its own. They have a product, such as fruit of the loom tighty whities made in a substantially cheap manner, inferior to the "same" product on the shelves of competitors with the thought that "a pair of underwear is a pair of underwear" and that they are cheaper at Walmart because of some miracle of distribution being practiced at Walmart. They are both white cotton men's briefs, they both have the Fruit of the loom packaging and tags, but one was designed to be inferior in materials and workmanship for the sake of walmart's profits and (unequal) competitive edge. This is but one small example--read about how the levi Strauss company had to shake hands with the Devil from Bentonville--it's not a pretty picture.
A while back Walmart was running a TV spot about how they converted an abandoned department store building (very obviously an art moderne Sears bldg.) into an inner-city Walmart.
Detroit would be a perfect place to do just this. We're waiting.

http://walmartwatch.com/
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Sirrealone
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Username: Sirrealone

Post Number: 21
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Monday, July 30, 2007 - 8:33 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't particularly care for Wal Mart but I will shop there on occasion.

Pro: They usually have decent everyday prices so stuff that doesn't go on sale much is often worth buying there.

Con: They don't have weekly sales.

Pro: I usually find what I want there. Meijer is usually out of anything on 'sale' that I want.

Pro: Their lines are usually shorter. Rarely do I ever wait less than 20 minutes to check out at Meijer.

I know their business practices aren't often the best which keeps me from being a regular shopper, but remember, they're a business to make money. Every for-profit business is like that. Even if all of you opened independent stores in Detroit, you're going to do it only if you can make a living at it, right? You can say, "Well, they make billions, why do they need to make more?" The answer: Because they have to in order to survive. Look at K-Mart, they made tons of money for decades and then they didn't stay up with the competition, and they tanked. Bottom line, Wal Mart knows that if they don't do everything they can to make money, someone else will, and then they'll be the dinosaur.

I have a question about the health insurance comment. Would the people have insurance if they were working for another company? There's a lot of job types that don't normally have insurance associated with it. This is across the board. I'm going to only go that far, because I don't want this to turn into a universal healthcare debate, but I think you see my point. If Mary Cashier or Joe Shelf Stocker isn't going to get insurance working for a smaller retailer, why should Wal Mart have to offer it? Just because they're large? If you think they're obligated, then please Google "GM Health Care Competitive Disadvantage" and maybe that will let us know how that'd turn out.

Again, I don't really even care much about Walmart, but some of the reasons I read or hear to hate them are ridiculous.
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Woodward
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Post Number: 24
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Posted on Monday, July 30, 2007 - 4:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wal-Mart isn't just any retailer. From what I've read, its control over its suppliers makes many justifiably worried.

Some excerpts from a July 2006 Harper's essay by Barry Lynn.

Popular notions of oligopoly and monopoly tend to focus on the danger that firms, having gained control over a marketplace, will then be able to dictate an unfairly high price, extracting a sort of tax from society as a whole. But what should concern us today even more is a mirror image of monopoly called “monopsony.” Monopsony arises when a firm captures the ability to dictate price to its suppliers, because the suppliers have no real choice other than to deal with that buyer. Not all oligopolists rely on the exercise of monopsony, but a large and growing contingent of today's largest firms are built to do just that. The ultimate danger of monopsony is that it deprives the firms that actually manufacture products from obtaining an adequate return on their investment. In other words, the ultimate danger of monopsony is that, over time, it tends to destroy the machines and skills on which we all rely.


...


The idea that Wal-Mart's power actually subverts the functioning of the free market will seem shocking to some. After all, the firm rose to dominance in the same way that many thousands of other companies before it did—through smart innovation, a unique culture, and a focus on serving the customer. Even a decade ago, Americans could fairly conclude that, in most respects, Wal-Mart's rise had been good for the nation. But the issue before us is not how Wal-Mart grew to scale but how Wal-Mart uses its power today and will use it tomorrow. The problem is that Wal-Mart, like other monopsonists, does not participate in the market so much as use its power to micromanage the market, carefully coordinating the actions of thousands of firms from a position above the market.

One of the basic premises of the free-market system is that actors are free to buy from or sell to a variety of other actors. In the case of Wal-Mart, no one can deny that every single firm that supplies the retailer is, technically, free not to do so. But is this true in the real world? After all, once a firm comes to depend on selling through Wal-Mart's system, just how conceivable is the idea of walking away? Producers own and maintain machines, employ skilled workers, lease land and buildings. Even with careful planning, most would find the sudden surrender of 20 percent or more of their revenue to be extremely disruptive, if not suicidal.

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