  Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 2202 Registered: 10-2003 |
Here's an interesting article from the BBC about vertical farming. It's basically creating a vertical greenhouse. I can't imagine what this would cost to create, nor how much the food from it would cost, but it is a unique idea. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/ame ricas/6752795.stm Could some of the vacant buildings around Detroit be used as greenhouses? Many of the Kahn and Kahn-esque industrial buildings around town were designed to have lots of natural light. Might make for good agricultural reuse. | ||
Redvetred Member Username: Redvetred Post Number: 33 Registered: 04-2007 |
Bvos, Good idea but you only need vertical farming when land is scarce and very expensive. In Detroit, vacant land is plentiful and cheap. With "Organic Gardening" becoming more mainstream, I'm surprised someone hasn't started plowing up vacant land. Community gardens are great to help feed the hungry but acres and acres of growing vegetables could do so much more. Given more land, cattle could graze along deserted roadsides. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2665 Registered: 10-2003 |
I guess I don't understand the drive for urban farming in the US. We already grossly overproduce food for our markets. This leaves very thin profit margins for small farmers. Why would you jump from one slim profit overproduced business (autos) to another slim profit overproduced business (food)? Why would you add capacity to an already saturated industry? It doesn't make any business sense to me. Even with a switch to organic foods there isn't enough profit margin to keep small time farmers in business. I'm sure the BBC is really into this since Britain has a much higher population density than the U.S. has. | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 422 Registered: 08-2006 |
How does one protect urban agriculture from "premature gleaning?" | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 373 Registered: 07-2005 |
I think one of the reasons for urban farming is so that poor inner city people who don't have access to fresh food, will. Which I think is nice, people having gardens in their backyards, and having some community gardens, and things. The vertical farming is a cool idea, but not very practical, unless it's for some kind of small and very specialized food that doesn't need a lot of space, that needs very specific conditions, and that people are willing to pay a lot of money for. | ||
Bulletmagnet Member Username: Bulletmagnet Post Number: 716 Registered: 01-2007 |
We don't need vertical farms. We can make plenty of conventional farms right within the city with all the vacant land around. The old idea of sharecropping could be brought back to help out the city. This would tie in nicely with Detroit's socialist mentality. | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 2203 Registered: 10-2003 |
One problem with the vacant land is that much of it has contamination: lead paint, asbestos, etc. Doing raised beds is one way to address this, but it makes mechanized farming difficult. Farming within well-lit former factories could be a way to get around the contamination issues. | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2331 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote: While not exactly food, I can think of one cash crop that fits that description. | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 196 Registered: 05-2006 |
I spoke to some folks who are actually doing urban farming in Detroit who said that the contamination issue is not really as serious as it is made out to be. You can make fairly decent money from growing crops in a small space if you choose your crop wisely. One example is growing mushrooms. These can definitely be grown "vertically" and could potentially be grown in abandoned buildings. One of the largest buyers for mushrooms is Little Ceasar's Pizza. The reason for growing food in urban areas is access to food and to keep the money in the neighborhoods. Right now, you can buy prepared food at the local convenience store or drive to the suburbs for your fresh fruits and vegetables (or wait until Saturday for Eastern Market). | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 18 Registered: 06-2007 |
Now were talkin. Vertical farming has it's intrigue for higher density communities (which is where global trends are heading), something that Detroit does not have. Contamination levels in the ground ARE a serious concern, but if anyone pays attention to the natural processes around them, it is clear that native species can remediate alot of land in relatively short time. My brother told me today about how it is very possible that in 25 years bees may not readily exist anymore. Guess what? No bees, no pollenization, no pollinization, no native species, no native species, no wildlife, no wildlife...no place for jeep commercials to be filmed four wheeling through forests, killing deer and mountain lions and what not. So, while vertical farming may not present its appeal readily to current lifestyle choices of sprawl and consumption, it opens the door to the next level of human evolution and may just be the spark Detroit could use to get people to reexamine their choices (or lack of choices considering our options). Vertical farming rexamines the way we think about everything, do we need two hundred acres for farms? do we need 3 million acres for housing? Do we need billions of acres of highways for transportation when we have the technology to move people and goods at speeds of three hundred miles per hour. Vertical farming touches on something bulletmagnet said about Detroits 'socialist' mentality. It brings into sharp focus the capitalistic mentality of rape and plunder. Can a profit be made in a fraction of the landuse we currently need? Can we still continue on a course of strip mining for raw materials, clear cutting for tract housing and roads and infrastructure? or can we rethink our choices on how we live and intelligently redefine land use? So, sure Detroit has a ton of vacant land, but i say let nature have it back! Is it truly every man for himself, every wannabe developer leeching onto any vacant piece of land in the hopes of finding a higher and better use for it (car repair, strip malls, taco bells, starbucks...etc.), or can money be made more intelligently through collaboration (REIT's with an agenda, Condo associations...etc) and educational training (skilled labor, gardening!, computers...etc) that helps people serve themselves by serving the greater good. Socialist you say, i think not. I just ask the question, what future does our current model of capitalism have in a severely shrinking planet? Does it even have one? I'm curious. I don't know the answer. The Romans thought they'd go on forever, did they? or did the dark ages come on in a damned hurry? So, Detroit a ghost by 2100, possible. Detroit, the city that redefined the world once, redefining humanity by 2100, even better. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 3102 Registered: 02-2005 |
No thanks. This is a city. Let's build stuff. Eventually Warren and Redford will be blighted and depressed and they can go back to farmland. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 2449 Registered: 12-2005 |
Jb3, more readers will read farther into your posts if you break it up into paragraphs. That way it's easier for the reader to keep their place. I sometimes wonder if we'll ever try to harvest the sunlight that today passes our planet, wasted on empty space. | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 20 Registered: 06-2007 |
Thanks for the tip Jimaz! I had that conversation today as well with my Bro. I wonder... Not without subsidy i imagine. | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 21 Registered: 06-2007 |
Mackinaw, i agree. Let's build! Up! I doubt that Warren, Redford and the other burbs will ever go back to farmland unless the D pulls up it's panties and tells em to go figure out how to get their own water. Good thinking though, let's maximize every square inch of the earth as if we owned it instead of just visiting for a little while. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2265 Registered: 07-2004 |
If people were more self sufficient, then there wouldn't be a need for people asking for handouts or living without heat in the winter. Saving money by feeding oneself and one's family leaves money available to pay the heating bill. People complain about being poor, but the key to ending poverty is to be self sufficient. Subsistence farming could help a lot of people in the hood. BTW, land behind a person's house has fewer contaminants than land where a house used to be. Identify where the houses used to be and only use the land behind them, then there should be very little contamination. People have been growing gardens in their backyards for years, and haven't died from illnesses caused by contamination. Now, all of a sudden the land is too contaminated. If you're talking about a former industrial site like Uniroyal, I understand, but and area where homes used to stand should not be an issue. The contamination argument is weak. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 3104 Registered: 02-2005 |
Perhaps we should encourage backyard gardening and community gardens in local parks and in areas with massive amounts of vacant lots, but it would be weird to take an entire empty/near empty block (i.e. far east side) and zone it for farming rather than residential redevelopment. Who's going to go into such a venture? And with that much land, you're going to end up with more commercial-type farming, and all the fertilizers/bug killers/farm implements that go with it. In Brightmoor, on vacant lots between existing homes, they have some shared vegetable gardens. I think it's a great idea, but about as far as we should take urban agriculture. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5714 Registered: 10-2003 |
This has already happened, Mackinaw. | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 22 Registered: 06-2007 |
Good, Now you're thinking! I may have been a bit overzealous in trying to get my point across. I don't really think in an all or nothing mindframe. I break everything down into it's smallest little bit, after all, that's the glue that's holds everything together, not to mention it's my job. I truly want to steer away from big business and corporations holding the majority of the land. Individuals should be resposnible and have a stake in how the land is used, not some greedy powerhouse. And i never said zone it for anything other than NO-zone, U CAN'T BUILD HERE! If you [re]read my post from above you'll recognize that the Vertical Garden makes us rethink land-use and maximizing key land instead of just building on everything. I think we're at a point in history where we're smart enough to figure it out. Sooooo, let's re-think! | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 23 Registered: 06-2007 |
Mackinaw-Good, Now you're thinking! I may have been a bit overzealous in trying to get my point across. I don't really think in an all or nothing mindframe. I break everything down into it's smallest little bit, after all, that's the glue that's holds everything together, not to mention it's my job. I truly want to steer away from big business and corporations holding the majority of the land. Individuals should be resposnible and have a stake in how the land is used, not some greedy powerhouse. And i never said zone it for anything other than NO-zone, U CAN'T BUILD HERE! If you [re]read my post from above you'll recognize that the Vertical Garden makes us rethink land-use and maximizing key land instead of just building on everything. I think we're at a point in history where we're smart enough to figure it out. Sooooo, let's re-think! | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 9520 Registered: 12-2003 |
Profit is a lousy metric for production of a subsistence-level item, and an even worse motivator. The need to support local farming is much greater than simple profit to an individual enterprise! Locally-grown and controlled food (and other herbs) should be encouraged greatly, everywhere it would fit. We're wasting the resources of healthy soil and sunshine and available fresh water while our citizens wither from malnutrition (and yes, fat people can be poorly nourished, too) and the knowledge and ability to grow and can our own fades from public memory. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2666 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sorry Gannon, without profit nobody is going to do it. Without profit nobody is going to pick the food. Without profit the farmer will not plant again. Without profit the taxes on that land can't be paid. Without those taxes the city will not improve. No farmer, Urban or traditional, is going to pour his own money into a project if he doesn't at least make up for his cash outlay. Why would you? We're not talking about corporate type profits. We're talking about profits that feed the farmer and his workers. Profit that pays for the farmers home and it's contents. Profit that pays for the maintainance of the garden. Profit that pays for the tools needed to tend the farm. Profit to cover a year when the crops just don't show up due to the weather or other disasters. Profit that keeps the bank from foreclosing on the loan that bought the land that needs to be farmed. Profit that keeps the city from foreclosing due to back taxes. This is america, people need to be paid to do the work. If you haven't noticed there isn't even enough money in farming to pay the Wages most americans expect to be paid. Hence the demand for undocumented aliens in the farming industry. Sorry I still don't see the sense in urban farming. If you're talking about people having a small victory type garden in thier yard, this makes huge sense. My family has always had a small vegetable garden as a hobby. If you talking about generating enough food to sell at a roadside stand, you need to make a profit. Otherwise why would anyone in their right mind do it. If you're not making a profit at it someone else is using you. If it cost you more to grow it than it does to drive to the store and buy it, why are you wasting your time and money to do it. There is a reason the family farm is dead in the USA. Agribusiness has priced them out of market. There is not enough profit there to even support a small family. | ||
Dave Member Username: Dave Post Number: 144 Registered: 10-2003 |
Gardening makes sense for anybody who has space enough for some lawn. I have a 10'x10' garden that supplies all my sweet and hot peppers for a year, will start producing tomatoes next week that will supply me through October, gives me greens and herbs for most of the year. I could grow more in it, but I couldn't keep up with the green beans last year so I didn't plant them. I have a 12 foot hedge of currant bushes that I expect to be giving me about three cases of wine each year by the year after next. Owner grown produce can be sold without any permits needed from the ag or health departments. If a dozen people in a neighborhood had gardens and got together in a mini farmer's market every Sunday afternoon to sell/trade their surplus, the gardeners would get some money and the neighborhood would eat better. Some commercial farms would be suitable and profitable in an urban environment, but the biggest positive impact could come from home gardens. Right now, the Michigan strawberry harvest is in full swing. The three supermarkets I shop at are all advertising sales on California strawberries. If you had some land with a fence around it and a mean dog in it to keep the kids out you can grow an awful lot of strawberries in a relatively small space. The California berries have to be picked before they are ripe, then they have to be trucked 3,000 miles in refrigerated trucks. You think some guy and his wife spending some of their spare time in a lot next to them couldn't be cost competitive with that? dave | ||
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy Post Number: 60 Registered: 04-2007 |
A great organization that promotes local produce and the sensible use of land, both urban and rural, is the Michigan Land Use Institute. Great articles on their site, and they are very active in lobbying government on policy issues. They have lots of info on buying local produce, including from urban farming. www.mlui.org | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 9527 Registered: 12-2003 |
N, So sad you felt you had to go into multiple paragraphs to explain something that so passe. I paid attention to my Econ 101 classes. I am specifically talking about a collective of victory gardens, to each his/her own within the framework of common instruction and perimeter policing. There is a fellow out west who preaches 4000 square feet of self-sustaining ground. Profit I'm talking about is after all those expenses...not top line but bottom line. That is the stuff I deem not necessary, as you say, since we're not talking about taking the stuff to market. Of course, enough benefit must be had for any involved to perceive it worth their efforts. The situation is not as dire as you believe, your analysis is only true when assuming a great many things, including that the affair is large-scale, motorized, and petro-chemically encouraged and protected. I just don't think within the current dollar metric is the only way to view this equation. I am convinced that when viewed within the capitalist system, we've seriously devalued the human contribution by relegating it to either production or consumption, with management soaking up the excess between the two. When it is a collective with internal management, and the previous metric of simple dollar assessment is replaced with a higher priority of being able to simple control basic nutrition through the food supply...then it is obvious that making certain the knowledge to farm and grow food is one of society's utmost important tasks. At that point, profit is not the only motivation to pursue this task, not by any stretch of the imagination...to merely look at it through a capitalist's eyes is to miss a whole understanding...it is not so much dollars as sense. | ||
Bumble Member Username: Bumble Post Number: 206 Registered: 11-2004 |
What are you waiting for, Gannon? | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 9530 Registered: 12-2003 |
The revolution, apparently. I'm taking steps to control the open land just north of where I live, so the city doesn't have to waste money mowing the grass that grows there now. | ||
Spaceman_spiff Member Username: Spaceman_spiff Post Number: 63 Registered: 02-2006 |
Great thread topic! Proposals like vertical farming are great, not because they are necessarily the right choice, but because they provoke thought on what the right choice might be. This thread has made me consider where the city is now, and some different directions it could take in the future. IMO, a city which has open space and is ringed by suburbs is in an ideal position to become a producing nexus. Whether this production is automobiles or vegetables, both "produce" employment and tax base(although to different degrees). I have always been interested in bioremediation and brownfields redevelopment. I know that some plants can sequester heavy metals or excess nutrients, is it feasible that the same plants could provide fruits/edibles that are not laden with the same? As to brownfields, I would love to learn more about the actual process through which subsidies, tax benefits, and governmental waiver of CERCLA liabilty work... but I havn't had the time/motivation yet. What will Detroit become? -Spiff | ||
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy Post Number: 62 Registered: 04-2007 |
In Youngstown they are closing off city services to large sections of the city to reduce costs. They are buying out residents who still live in the affected areas to enable them to totally close it down. How about this? We do the same thing here, create "villages" of denser development, connect them with transit, and begin farming the areas in between. Instant greenbelts, with planned access for recreation, etc. The first crop: plants that will remove toxins from the soil that remain from industrial days. Later, after the toxins are reduced, begin farming in earnest, with greenhouse farming for winter months. Add agricultural and food-distribution jobs. Win-win. | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2269 Registered: 07-2004 |
Parkguy, it makes perfect sense, but what happens to the people who refuse to leave their homes eventhough Youngstown is giving them money to leave? In Detroit, it would be a nightmare with lawsuits galore. Nothing here is ever done easily. | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 199 Registered: 05-2006 |
I think that the problem in the past is that people have been offered market value for their homes. They should be offered more than that because of the hassle of moving and finding a new places to live. Usually everyone has their price. Of course, there will always be hold outs who are waiting for Detroit to magically revert to the Paris of the Midwest. So let them stay, but they will have to dig their own wells, maintain their own streets, and build their own septic fields. That might sound harsh, but Detroit simply does not have the money to provide those services unless the population density supports the costs. Other rural areas with low population densities also have to do these things. | ||
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy Post Number: 63 Registered: 04-2007 |
I think in the Youngstown plan they are also closing off the streets, police, and fire services, but I don't know to what extent. But the well and septic idea might work... | ||
Dave Member Username: Dave Post Number: 145 Registered: 10-2003 |
Minnesota Public Radio recently had a story about raising chickens in Minneapolis back yards. http://minnesota.publicradio.o rg/display/web/2007/06/18/chic kencoops/?rsssource=1 You can pasture 6-12 meat and fiber goats year round on 1 acre. Somebody ought to try growing their own cashmere sweater. dave | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 121 Registered: 06-2007 |
quote from spaceman-spiff: 'As to brownfields, I would love to learn more about the actual process through which subsidies, tax benefits, and governmental waiver of CERCLA liabilty work... but I havn't had the time/motivation yet. ' Spiff, please click on this link. http://www.cityscapedetroit.or g/ | ||
Jelk Member Username: Jelk Post Number: 4486 Registered: 10-2003 |
So while most cities in the world with advanced economies/societies are engaged in evolution from an industrial economy to an information economy the Detroitists are plotting a the de-evolution from an industrial economy into an agricultural economy. We'll be Michissippi in no time! (Message edited by Jelk on July 07, 2007) | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 122 Registered: 06-2007 |
I think you missed the point Jelk. We're not dealing with economics here (that comes along for the ride). Were talking about quality of life. Basic human needs and resources that are replenished as we grow as a city, not depleted. Why do we continue to 'grow' useless homes and subdivisions on our most fertile agricultural land forcing places like Arizona to try and meet that demand, when they have to expend more resources (water, nutrients to the soil...etc) in order to supply a growing population. I can appreciate your pessimism, but computers won't feed you apples. i encourage you to engage in our little discussion here on the possibilities of dragging this decrepit city kicking and screaming into the 21st century by embracing the idea of technology as a means to improved living conditions. Welcome! (Message edited by Jb3 on July 07, 2007) | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 1548 Registered: 02-2007 |
"the Detroitists" Either you're making up a new word to joke about people trying to take Detroit backwards or you're making up a new name for people who hate Detroit. (Message edited by Urbanize on July 07, 2007) | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1276 Registered: 10-2006 |
That's the name for the developer of the Detroit Elevator Co. Building. | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 123 Registered: 06-2007 |
LOL https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/5/106668.html?1183777508 click on #4. | ||
Bijouloveshues Member Username: Bijouloveshues Post Number: 3 Registered: 07-2007 |
I read this article a couple of weeks ago on the BBC website and think it's a great idea. Bvos :: It's an even better idea to bring it to Detroit and utilize the real estate space we have downtown!  I really hope that the concept gets seriously explored and think it could have a very positive effect on taking healthy food out of the "Luxury Goods" category (It's infuriating that we have to pay extra for food without pesticides) More ideas like this and we're in business! | ||
Bvos Member Username: Bvos Post Number: 2213 Registered: 10-2003 |
Jelk, That seems to be where we're headed with or without urban agriculture. If we're going there, I guess I'd rather have some urban ag. than what we largely have today. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 9542 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jelk, You've obviously missed the movement away from corporate foodstuffs...this is becoming a bonafide trend now. Locally grown 'organic' food and livestock are high-end commodities, not some backwater fallback to an agrarian time because we have to...we're CHOOSING to move forward with this wonderful new market. Get with the program, Jelk. I guess bookish intelligence isn't everything, huh?! | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 9544 Registered: 12-2003 |
One thing I need to say to Ndavies' initial posting in this thread, that might help clarify the discussion...not all food is Food. The stuff that has been grossly over-produced is mainly the genetically-modified corn and soy product that has been morphed away from actually being describable as Nutrition. According to that marvelously articulate spokesperson for the inner-city group on WDET last week, the market NEEDS for locally-grown produce is estimated as ten times the currently available supply, and Michael Pollan's excellent modern anthropology study of the food supply, The Omnivore's Dilemma, hasn't even gone to paperback yet! Cheers. | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 176 Registered: 06-2007 |
http://www.treehugger.com/file s/2007/07/food_education.php |
