  Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 286 Registered: 11-2006 |
This is yet another thread spawned by a new big article in a paper (complete with a map and buildings and discussion of those buildings). http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070509/B IZ/705090380 The biggest thing I noticed was the property as Columbia and Cass apparently isn't owned by Ilitch and something is being done to it. According to the posts in the other threads that parcel is critical. If Ilitch can't get it, he might have trouble putting together the parcel the way I'd think is most desirable. My gut feeling is that if Ilitch was (is) able to control all the land he needs now, he'd announce a new arena within 10 days of the end of the Wings' season. Or might have announced after the end of the Tigs' '06 season. (Message edited by emu_steve on May 09, 2007) | ||
Drankin21 Member Username: Drankin21 Post Number: 87 Registered: 12-2003 |
build that schitt! | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 287 Registered: 11-2006 |
manage that schitt!! http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20070509/ENT 04/705090422 | ||
Genesyxx Member Username: Genesyxx Post Number: 717 Registered: 02-2004 |
here comes the swerve..... NEW 10 STORY PARKING STRUCTURE | ||
Dustin89 Member Username: Dustin89 Post Number: 13 Registered: 07-2006 |
Do you think Illitch will demo the Chin Tiki or reopen it? | ||
Dustin89 Member Username: Dustin89 Post Number: 14 Registered: 07-2006 |
Ilitch* | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 289 Registered: 11-2006 |
If I were Ilitch, I'd "trade" Chin Tiki for that building at Columbia/Cass. It would be nice to save Chin Tiki and demo the building at Columbia/Cass as it would look silly if Ilitch had to build around it. Air rights anyone? Build around and above it??? Anyone think that building is stopping Ilitch from going forward????? | ||
Waz Member Username: Waz Post Number: 37 Registered: 11-2006 |
"...Karen Cullen, spokeswoman for Ilitch Holdings..." No relation to Matt Cullen, manager of economic development at GM, is it? | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 810 Registered: 11-2004 |
The building is the CC bar https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/5/100451.html?1178245538 | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 141 Registered: 12-2006 |
You would think that with the stadium right there, the Chin Tiki would be in a prime location to re-open. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1627 Registered: 10-2003 |
Looks like the C.C. Bar building is staying. Good. Let Ilitch build around it. Gee, it would be SO SAD if the silhouette of his "new Olympia" had to have a "cut-out" in it. Hmmm, if there IS a new hockey arena going up in that area, a bar right next door sure would be lucrative... But I'm sure the owners of the C.C. Bar have thought of that already...  | ||
Smogboy Member Username: Smogboy Post Number: 5122 Registered: 11-2004 |
The Chin Tiki would be great to have re-opened (drool) but would it be more profitable as a redevelopment project or as cleared land that could be used for (ugh) a parking structure for the new stadium? Personally I would love to see Ilitch salvage the place and restore it to its former glory- much like he did with the Fox. Sometimes I wonder how much praise & PR Ilitch is missing out on by missing opportunities such as this. | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 291 Registered: 11-2006 |
If Ilitch does the arena, Chin Tiki and GAR building, this forum ought to nominate him as the Detroit Man of the Year. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 619 Registered: 01-2005 |
My guess is the owner of the CC tore down the old building and has put up roughed-in wall studs covered with Tyvek as a negotiating ploy. The cost to build and equip a new (very small) bar there doesn't make one iota of economic sense even if the guy firmly believes a new arena will be build in the area. And, Ilitch doesn't really need that corner anyway. Let's wait and see. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11560 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: You obviously don't know the area very well, nor the number of people who park around there during 81 Tiger games, 10 Lions games, and every other event in the nearby area. A bar back there would do just fine. | ||
Mg2007 Member Username: Mg2007 Post Number: 18 Registered: 12-2006 |
Do you think if this happens it will effect the sales of the lofts/condos in the area in a positive way or do you think sales stay neutral? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2457 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: How do you make money the other 75% of the time? | ||
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit Post Number: 471 Registered: 11-2006 |
Sport, If a bar would do just fine there, then there wouldnt be multiple closed up bars in the area. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 5311 Registered: 11-2003 |
Danindc, the CC Bar makes its money from the happening scene in the Cass Corridor. LOL. It sure does look like Ilitch Holdings is going to build an Olympia Stadium, a name everybody in his generation loves. Hopefully, this will be a modern version of the Old Red Barn on Grand River and Mcgraw. jjaba, LOL. | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 1424 Registered: 01-2005 |
Olympia. Sigh. A brick from the Old Red Barn sits in my den. Memories........... | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 328 Registered: 11-2003 |
Your are kidding yourselves if you think the CC bar or the Chin Tiki are coming back. Where have they been the past 10 years if they were such great places? Are you looking at the big picture and what is clearly obvious here? | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 292 Registered: 11-2006 |
quote: "My guess is the owner of the CC tore down the old building and has put up roughed-in wall studs covered with Tyvek as a negotiating ploy. The cost to build and equip a new (very small) bar there doesn't make one iota of economic sense even if the guy firmly believes a new arena will be build in the area. And, Ilitch doesn't really need that corner anyway. " two thoughts: 1). I thought Ilitch DID need that corner. My belief is that the corner is critical and to do a workaround would be difficult. Am I wrong on this? 2). If those owning land that Ilitch needs refuse to sell to him (to build an arena) they'll be stuck with perfectly worthless land. The value of their land today is essentially based on the speculation that an arena WILL BE built in the area. As others have said, if an arena is not built there, that land will be an undeveloped asphalt jungle for decades. | ||
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336 Post Number: 49 Registered: 02-2007 |
"Hopefully, this will be a modern version of the Old Red Barn" I don't know if I want that hanging on the side of a wall feeling old Olympia had | ||
Cmubryan Member Username: Cmubryan Post Number: 435 Registered: 11-2003 |
What year was Olympia torn down? What stands in its place? | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1422 Registered: 11-2003 |
Why isn't the Ilitch casino in Foxtown? That seems like it would have made a TON of sense. Tigers+Wings+Fox+Hockeytown+Ca sino means they would have had a monopoly on entertainment there. People would go to games, then hit the casino. Guarantee very few people walk to motor city after a game...... | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1633 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'd like to see an exact replica of Joe Louis Arena built in the Foxtown area. Boy, old Olympia sure is romanticized on this forum... guess you have to be a hockey fan to understand that... | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 293 Registered: 11-2006 |
Quote: quote: You obviously don't know the area very well, nor the number of people who park around there during 81 Tiger games, 10 Lions games, and every other event in the nearby area. A bar back there would do just fine. How do you make money the other 75% of the time?" Dan, you are being a bit cynical I suppose. If the arena is built there, there will be 81 baseball games [min. - maybe more ;-) ], maybe a dozen or two events at Ford Field, say 50+ hockey games, maybe a few dozen other events at the arena, etc. etc. (I'm just counting CoPa, FF and 'Foxtown Arena") and already at 175+. As most events don't duplicate (e.g., have a football game and baseball game the same day) I assume that an unduplicated count of days with with an event at either FF or CoPa or "Foxtown Arena" probably approaches 50% of the calendar. What makes a hockey arena SO important is that it fills a season OPPOSITE baseball. Baseball goes from April 1 to Sept 30 (approximately) and then hockey takes over and ends in April (without counting the playoffs). Perfect! I don't think there is a empty (dead) week in the calendar between baseball and hockey. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2462 Registered: 10-2003 |
Actually, I was being quite realistic. Business owners have to pay rent (both for the business, and their home). They need to eat, preferably on a daily basis. Their employees need to be paid on a regular basis. Granted, some days will be slower than others, but you can't run a bar or a restaurant knowing you only have potential for significant business 25% of the time (or *almost* 50% IF Ilitch builds a new hockey arena in Foxtown). | ||
Rsa Member Username: Rsa Post Number: 1131 Registered: 10-2003 |
don't forget about shows at the fox, state, masonic, etc. there are plenty of events going on that can subsidize the off periods, if the owners have a good head on their shoulders. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 624 Registered: 01-2005 |
Supersport: I happen to know the area very very well (note, 2 "very's'). I own alone or w/ 2 partners 4 parcels in the immediate area. Talk w/ Pat Springstead, owner of Nemo's, and see if he would relocate 100 feet to stay close to the Tigers or any other sports team. No. He was offered the opportunity when CoPa was built and laughed at the idea. How long did Tony Ferlito's building sit empty 100 feet from CoPa before he was able to lease it as Chelli's? He held that parcel for over four years and spent several $100,00s renovating the building before before he was able to lease it. Bars/restaurants close to a hockey arena will do better than ones close to a baseball stadium. Reason? Baseball fans tend to be families who eat and drink inside the stadium during a game. Hockey fans are usually more affluent, tickets are held by companies and distributed to customers for business purposes; those folks usually go to dinner before the game and for drinks afterward. As Pat Springstead will tell you, sports related revenue tends to be frosting on the cake and to be successful one must have daily traffic, a heavy lunch business and decent dinner business and an after work cocktail-hour business to stay in business. Emu_Steve: You're partially correct in that much of the value of some of those parcels is speculative. However, if Ilitch doesn't build there, there's always Rock Financial. Or,..... | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4283 Registered: 08-2004 |
3WC, I think much of the reason for the 4 years delay in the Women's Exchange (Tony Ferlito) was that originally Ilitch wanted the property as part of the county condemnation for CoPa. Tony (or whomever?) took the county to court and won. The reason given to the judge was that they wanted the property for turning it into a "decorative sidewalk" for CoPa. The judge sided with the building owner. So Ilitch was pissed off. Tony Ferlito didn't have the needed parking for successful restaurant lease, and Ilitch wasn't going to provide any of his nearby spots. Sour grapes. That's why the China Club idea fell thru for that building. But then along came Chris Chelios, who wanted to put a restaurant in that building, and Ilitch wasn't going to turn down one of his superstars. Otherwise, I think that the Women's Exchange Building would still be empty. | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 854 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: What closed up bars are you talking about? The Town Pump, State Bar, Hockeytown Cafe, Centaur, Proof, Cliff Bells, Harry's, and the Park Bar? | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 855 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Dan, Your argument underscores the benefit of adding a new hockey arena in Foxtown. The Tigers and Lions play 91 home games every year, and the addition of a new stadium for the Red Wings would bring that number up to 132 scheduled games per year. When you add in all the playoff games, concerts, college football and hockey games, and events at the Fox and State Theaters, there would be at least 250-300 major events held in the Foxtown neighborhood every year. In addition to greater event traffic, a new hockey arena in Foxtown would also help to stabilize a growing entertainment district, and solidify the Foxtown neighborhood as a year-round downtown destination. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 637 Registered: 01-2005 |
Gistok: I can't as I write this say you're wrong on the history of the building but I've spoken w/ Ferlito a number of times about his downtown real estate (mostly about the Kales) and he never mentioned Ilitch or anyone else as being a problem. At the time of the CoPa condemnation the building was owned by the Central Methodist Church (the one on the corner of Woodward); I tried to buy the building in 1986 or '87 (being way ahead of the loft craze, and out of the money.) I'm not aware of any condemnation lawsuit involving the parcel, and when they're filed the landowner is always the defendant, not the one who files the suit. Owners counter-claim. I'd check that out, if you're interested. Also, I'd be suspicious of the claim there was lack of parking. That's generally not a criteria that's not easily addressed. Slow's for example does not have one dedicated parking space. Little Plates (?) or the Detroit Brewery (?) next door don't have any either. As long as there is virtually any street parking in the area you're home free. The next time I talk w/ Ferlito I'll check it out. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4307 Registered: 08-2004 |
Thanks 3WC. You may be right on the parking issue, but I do remember reading about someone going to court to prevent condemnation. The term "decorative sidewalk" was the reason for the condemnation, and the judge threw it out. Whether it was Ferlito or the Church, that I couldn't tell you. But I definitely remember the "decorative sidewalk" reasoning for trying to get the property. | ||
Drm Member Username: Drm Post Number: 1100 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote:This is completely untrue. Try again. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 641 Registered: 01-2005 |
Re: Slows. Where's the parking spaces dedicated to Slows? Every time I've been there I've had to park on the street, sometimes a block or more away. The only negatives I've heard about the place are too much smoke and no parking. | ||
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 1 Registered: 05-2007 |
WAZ, Yes, Karen Cullen's husband Matt works at GM. | ||
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 2 Registered: 05-2007 |
Here's a link to a LIVE.com map with more than 150 parcels owned or controlled by Ilitch (and affiliates) in downtown Detroit. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1253 Registered: 06-2006 |
why is the Moose lodge included in those? | ||
Qdaddy77 Member Username: Qdaddy77 Post Number: 24 Registered: 05-2007 |
Verifiable, can you post the actual url for that? i click on the link and it takes over the forum! thanks in advance! (Message edited by qdaddy77 on May 21, 2007) | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 819 Registered: 11-2003 |
At the time of the Comerica Park condemnations, the Womens' Exchange building was not owned by Central United Methodist. It was owned by an individual, a younger fellow whose name escapes me at the moment. He had been attempting for years to find some sort of profitable reuse of the building. The Stadium Authority initially tried to strongarm him into a sale because of the purported need install the aforementioned decorative sidewalk and stadium entrance at that location. As was typical of local government at the time, they were oblivious to the fact that the building was and is a locally designated historic district. As such, the building could not be demolished without going through the Historic District Commission and satisfying the prerequisite demolition criteria in the historic district ordinance. This obstacle delayed the demolition freight train long enough for the Stadium Authority to take a closer look at its land needs and reconsider the decorative sidewalk. It also provided the owner an opportunity to strike a deal with Ferlito. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4357 Registered: 08-2004 |
That list includes everything from the Moose Lodge, to the Statler site, to Chuck Forbes Palms-State Building (where the State/Fillmore Theatre) is. So I don't quite understand the numerical property listings, in relation to Ilitch Holdings. Maybe it's their wish list! | ||
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 4 Registered: 05-2007 |
Hello Gistok, I note that in the left hand column of the map, shaded in blue grey is the following: "This is a map of property owned primarily by these Ilitch entities: (A) Olympia Development/Entertainment (pins 1-63); (B) Detroit Entertainment/MotorCity Casino (pins 64-153); (C) Elizabeth Street Properties LLC (pins 157-161)" It looks to be about 150-160 Ilitch properties in all and it appears the other 16 properties (163-178) are thrown in for reference or perhaps to demonstrate other owners of significant locations? I note the reference on those locations to be the property owners or names of the properties. The data indicates it has been obtained from public real estate records. Try this original url if the link before isn't working for you (be sure to cut and paste the ENTIRE string provided here) - http://maps.live.com/default.a spx?v=2&cp=42.332725~-83.05608 3&style=h&lvl=14&tilt=-90&dir= 0&alt=-1000&scene=5649368&cid= 6A9CE98C8240620F!213&encType=1 | ||
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 5 Registered: 05-2007 |
Is it possible the court case being recalled was actually the eminent domain lawsuit brought by Frida Alibri that went all the way to the Michigan Supreme Court? Alibri was coerced under threat of condemnation into selling her property, so a sports stadium [Mike Ilitch's Comerica Park] could be built. As part of the deal, Ms. Alibri was promised that the property would not be sold later to a private party. Notwithstanding the promises made, after the transaction closed, ownership indeed was transferred to a private party [Mike Ilitch]. Consequently, Frida Alibri sued to get her property back. Case went back and forth through the court system. The Supreme Court ultimately ruled against Ilitch eminent domain scheme and "decided that the taking was not a legitimate one after all, and Frida Alibri got her property back." | ||
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 6 Registered: 05-2007 |
Note this blog post: "Did Ilitch pay $1.73 million for Elizabeth Street Lofts? "The Ilitch organization, under the name West Grand River Lofts has purchased or entered into an agreement to purchase the former Elizabeth Street Lofts property at 2030 West Grand River Avenue (downtown Detroit, MI) for $1.73 million during the first quarter of 2007." | ||
Drm Member Username: Drm Post Number: 1106 Registered: 10-2003 |
According to this map, the Moose Lodge is owned by Moose Building, LLC. According to public state of Michigan records, the resident agent for Moose Building, LLC is John M. Kotlar at 2211 Woodward Avenue. See for yourself - Moose Building entry. Go figure .... | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 337 Registered: 11-2003 |
2211 Woodward Avenue is home of Olympia Development of Michigan LLC | ||
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 9 Registered: 05-2007 |
John M. Kotlar is Vice President, Tax Affairs at Ilitch Holdings, Inc. Bio | ||
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 10 Registered: 05-2007 |
Gistok, The Statler site was included in the Maps.LIVE.com project because it is being co-marketed with the United Artists site which is Ilitch controlled. | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 338 Registered: 11-2003 |
This might be old news but see page 38. http://www.nationalcenter.org/ ShatteredDreams07.pdf | ||
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 13 Registered: 05-2007 |
Rjlj, as the reference you provided discusses property owned by Freda Alibri, you'll note the Maps.LIVE.com project includes Freda Alibri properties. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4359 Registered: 08-2004 |
From tax records someone posted earlier this year on another thread, the Tuller/United Artists Block has 4 parcels of land. 1) UA, 2) Tuller site, 3) small parking lot between these 2, and 4) larger parking lot at the corner of W. Adams and Clifford. The Tuller and UA sites were Ilitch owned, but the other 2 sites were owned by the estate of a Harold Shapiro of Bloomfield Hills. Has Ilitch purchased those other 2 parcels on that block? | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4375 Registered: 08-2004 |
Verifiable, you have done an excellent job of inventorying the Ilitch Holdings list of buildings and properties that they own. Can you give us the latest on the 2 (of 4) parcels on the Tuller/United Artists block that I mentioned in the previous post? | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 651 Registered: 01-2005 |
The 2 parcels are owned by heirs of a guy named Shapiro, as has been pointed out here before. I'm told that the heirs are scattered, there are many of them, and some can't be located. Those are both critical parcels and If I were in the hunt to buy them, I'd convince some of the known heirs to commence , for example, a partition action, obtain a receiver to sell the parcels to the highest bidder, and escrow the missing heirs' portion. The Court could Order the recording of a receiver's deed which would transfer title. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4377 Registered: 08-2004 |
Thanks for the info 3WC. You are absolutely correct about those 2 parcels being critical, especially if the Statler/Tuller parcels are to be marketed together at 5+ acres. Although it wouldn't make a good arena site (closing Bagley is not an option, and then there's the People Mover route), it sure would make for a nice Quicken site or other development. If I were a betting man, I would guess that some type of action like the legal route you just described may have started some time ago. | ||
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 30 Registered: 05-2007 |
3WC, Based on documents on file with Wayne County Registry of Deeds, it looks like the city attempted some such action in 1996 as there's a lis pendens on the property; but that was released in 1998. At that time there were some 18 owners (heirs)listed as defendants. And in fact it looks like one Eliot Charlip had commenced such an action against Gilbert Greenbaum in 2003 and was successful. Charlip has transacted business with Olympia Development before. | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 173 Registered: 12-2006 |
You guys are are like a punch of P.I.s working a case. It's been fun to follow. | ||
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle Post Number: 90 Registered: 10-2006 |
Well the Wings season is over. Im hoping for an announcement soon. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 655 Registered: 01-2005 |
Verifiable: Very interesting. I wonder on what basis the County filed a lawsuit. It must have been a tax foreclosure action or similar. I'd like the Charlip v Greenbaum case citation if you have it. Were either of them Shapiro heirs, if you know? | ||
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 31 Registered: 05-2007 |
no citation of a case just the "lis pendens" noting the City as plaintiff. Here's the link to the search page. put in the names and see what you come up with. http://www.waynecountylandreco rds.com/RealEstate/SearchEntry .aspx | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 656 Registered: 01-2005 |
Verifiable: Very Interesting. I've never used your source before and did not have much time. However, Under "Charlip, Eliot" and "Quit Claim Deeds" there are several entries. Most recent recordings were in July, '06. But those deeds from Charlip to himself and his wife, as I recall, are mysterious. The Street address of the property is listed as "151 W. Adams" yet the legal description is for the 50 X 60 foot parcel at 136 Bagley, the small lot next to the UA and the Tuller site. Of course a QC Deed does not prove much and one would have to have an accurate title search going back a ways to determine if it's a stray deed, out of the chain, or whatever. There are also deeds for 151 Adams between Charlip and his wife (QC deeds). It's not the other lot, which is on Middle street if I recall correctly. No evidence of transactions w/ Ilitch, but I did not check any other categories of recordable instruments. Charlip resides at 5238 Great Oaks Ct., West Bloomfield 48323 | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4388 Registered: 08-2004 |
3WC, I remember seeing on an old downtown map (1940's?) that Hornwrecker posted a few months back, that the other parcel was on the SE corner of W. Adams and Clifford intersection (on the NW portion of the Tuller/UA block, directly north of the United Artist Theatre auditorium). That would NOT place it on Middle St., which only runs for one block from Clifford to Cass, behind the Michigan Bldg. If odd numbered addresses are found on the south side of Adams, then that parcel could be the 151 W. Adams site. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 658 Registered: 01-2005 |
Gistok: I think you're correct. | ||
Colkurtz Member Username: Colkurtz Post Number: 6 Registered: 02-2004 |
Verifiable, Your work is very detailed, and I appreciate it. I am curious who you are working for, or with, not necessarily individual’s names, but perhaps some details so I can better understand you’re perceptive. Are you a concerned citizen, part of a news organization, a non-profit, etc? I find the work you did, and your devotion pretty fascinating. Other then the Wayne county site you listed above, and the city of Detroit property search page, did you use any other useful sites? | ||
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 34 Registered: 05-2007 |
just an individual. not working for anyone. became familiar with Ilitch Family/mike malik via their various casino ventures and connected with others around the U.S. who had also been monitoring the activity. together we shared what we knew and then decided to begin posting the resources and information so that others in the future could get a headstart and be better informed when asked to make decisions. We had each read much speculation and hearsay about Ilitch ownership in downtown Detroit and wanted to operate from a position of knowledge that was a bit more fact base and less speculative. I try to stick to things that can be verified by documentation -- not to suggest that is always a basis for truth ... but it's the best we can do. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 661 Registered: 01-2005 |
From a trusted source: Eliot Charlip is a lawyer who represented one of the heirs in a matter and was not paid for his services. He accepted the client's interest in the 2 lots (a very small interest, apparently) in lieu of his fee. Also of possible interest is the fact that Fed. Ct. Judge Irwin Cohn is also an interest owner. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4404 Registered: 08-2004 |
Studying Verifiable's excellently researched map, it looks like Mike Ilitch pretty much owns all the land between Montcalm on the north, Adams on the south, "west of" Park Ave. on the east, and Cass on the west, with the following exceptions: 142 W. Elizabeth (parking lot, owner Freda Alibri) 171 W. Coumbia (parking lot, owner Freda Alibri) 200 W. Coumbia (parking lot, owner Freda Alibri) 204 W. Adams (tiny parking lot, owner Joseph Sheehan II) 212 W. Adams (tiny parking lot, owner Joseph Sheehan II) 220 W. Adams (tiny parking lot, owner Joseph Sheehan II) 228 W. Adams (tiny parking lot, owner Joseph Sheehan II) All of these parking lots are along or very near Clifford Ave., which would literally be the middle of an Arena on that site (Clifford would have to be closed for an arena there). As mentioned before, the family of Freda Alibri sued to get their land back after it was Eminent Domain'ed for the (west of Woodward) new ballpark before the site was changed to east of Woodward. And there are a group of tiny parcels along W. Adams west of Clifford that are owned by a Joseph Sheehan II. But these are not as critical as the parcels owned by Freda Alibri. Otherwise it looks as though everything west of the buildings near Park Ave. are Ilitch owned. Anyway, I wonder if these last pieces of the Arena puzzle will sell out ($$$$) or force Mike Ilitch to look elsewhere for an arena site? | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4405 Registered: 08-2004 |
... oh yeah, I almost forgot... then there's that guy who knocked down 2 walls of his building and is rebuilding it... Sort of reminds me of the fellow that was putting new windows into the Film Building before the decision was made to move the stadia east of Woodward back in the 1990's. | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 312 Registered: 11-2006 |
Excellent work, gentlemen. That makes Freda Alibri and the owner of the bar on Columbia and Cass the key land owners. Certainly shows how site assembly goes without eminent domain - can be a very tough deal to pull off. BTW, the new Washington Nationals Stadium could NOT have been built without eminent domain. There were owners of adult clubs (gay) who had about six such establishments on a single block. D.C. zoning prevented them from transferring to other locations in D.C. (it is virtually impossible to move an 'adult entertainment' establishment in D.C.). The owner fought and fought eminent domain and eventually lost. The clubs eventually closed. The owners recently bought land parcels in N.E. D.C. and are trying to get legislation allowing them to re-open (along with a few other clubs which were closed when the land owners sold the land). One D.C. councilman is supporting the legislation. One D.C. councilman is opposing the legislation. As one might expect, the D.C. councilman whose district (ward is the D.C. term) these clubs would go is strongly opposing it. | ||
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 43 Registered: 05-2007 |
All, Assembling the Alibri properties might not be all that difficult. It seems they have been forfeited to the Wayne County Treasurer. 142 W Elizabeth St, Detroit, MI 48201, Freda Alibri; delinquent taxes owed $52,387.90 171 W Columbia St, Detroit, MI 48201-3403, Freda Alibri; delinquent taxes owed $7,493.72 200 W Columbia St, Detroit, MI 48201,Freda Alibri; delinquent taxes owed $23,223.48 At some point one will likely be able to acquire these parcels for back taxes -- $83,105.10. One data base source indicates the collective market value of all three parcel groups is $866,536.00. And if the Elizabeth Street Lofts property did sell for $1.73 million (Wayne Co. Registry of Deeds Instrument #207083831), then the market value of these Alibri properties would be substantially greater. If these records are true, it seems as though they'll finally steal these properties from Freda Alibri for good. | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 315 Registered: 11-2006 |
That has got to be good news. I'd think the Ilitch should not have too much trouble acquiring property from Ms. Alibri given the info presented above. Might one surmise that the delinquent taxes are a temporary state of affairs which just might be cleaned up as part of a sale of those parcels to Ilitch? Compare this to the story I presented above where a land owner of property in the middle of the Nationals' baseball stadium site fought the city tooth and nail trying to overturn an eminent domain ruling which went against him. Funny story: One land owner filed suit on the basis that the stadium rest rooms would not have sufficient number of stalls for women and therefore would be discriminatory to women and that D.C. should not actively promote this injustice. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 674 Registered: 01-2005 |
Just to repeat a comment from the DK thread. The Alibri family is wealthy and very sophisticated in real estate matters. It is inconceivable that they will ever lose one sq in of real estate for non-payment of taxes. It ain't going to happen. Also, there was a court decision a couple of weeks ago which gives aggrieved taxpayers additional remedies to recover property lost for non-pmt of taxes. | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 316 Registered: 11-2006 |
Agree. Maybe, however, it may show that the family has no current plans for that land. If so, presumably they would be inclined to sell for the right price. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1714 Registered: 10-2003 |
It amazes me how many of you are rooting for Mr. Ilitch to get his arena built behind the Fox. Does this guy, who continues to precipitate the demolition of historic properties via neglect, have to get everything he wants? I think not. Besides, with a hockey arena there, the traffic in that area would be horrendous. I can't even imagine what it would be like on a game night, with shows going on at the Fox and the State as well. A nightmare. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1311 Registered: 06-2006 |
Fury: You appear to be confusing peoples' desire for a new hockey arena with their desire to see Ilitch get something he wants... The saying goes, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"...in this case, obstructionists like yourself who stand in the way of progress by whining whenever a vacant, decaying building gets removed are the enemy of both Ilitch AND those who want a new hockey arena... so, in a way, our interests are incidentally aligned with Ilitch's, but it's for our own selfish reasons and not our desire to see Ilitch get what he wants | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 187 Registered: 12-2006 |
Fury, It won't be any worse than on days when the Tigers and Lions play the same day. In fact it will probably be a lot easier. Less people. Besides, if the traffic is bad getting out of a game, it gives people more incentive to stick around at a bar and wait for the traffic to clear out. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1715 Registered: 10-2003 |
"...The saying goes, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"...in this case, obstructionists like yourself who stand in the way of progress by whining whenever a vacant, decaying building gets removed are the enemy of both Ilitch AND those who want a new hockey arena..." You're reading WAY too much into my posts. I don't like Ilitch, and I don't like hockey. End of story. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1312 Registered: 06-2006 |
uh, ok. lol | ||
Rjlj Member Username: Rjlj Post Number: 343 Registered: 11-2003 |
Fury13, Take the bus or walk. I can't wait for the day that people complain of too many people downtown. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1716 Registered: 10-2003 |
"I can't wait for the day that people complain of too many people downtown." You'll be waiting until about 2040 or so. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 392 Registered: 12-2006 |
I dunno Fury, try driving up around the Fox area any time the Tigers are playing. If the Tigers and Wings both have a game, and there's something going on at the Fox, it's almost like you're driving in a big city | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4428 Registered: 08-2004 |
Well if you feel it'll be 2040... then why are you worried about it being a traffic nightmare now? A people move stop is only 2 blocks away, so I don't see the problem. It certainly will still be better than getting in and out of the Palace, where there are no other options than to sit in your car. Praying for the day downtown traffic returns to be like it used to be in the 1920's-1950's. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1719 Registered: 10-2003 |
They had streetcars in the '20s-'50s. They don't now. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4429 Registered: 08-2004 |
But they also had 2 million residents within the city (by 1954). But they didn't have a People Mover or freeways. I do think that most forumers welcome a more congested downtown... it would make downtown Detroit more like the downtowns of other USA large cities (even if only on multi-sport game days). A lot of forumers were posting last year on how wonderful downtown was when it was full of people whenever the Tigers packed Comerica Park. The Ilitch's have pissed off a lot of people, and have made a lot of other people happy. One reason I am hopeful for a west Foxtown Arena is that our Stadia/Arena/Theatre/Casino entertainment district could be the greatest multifunctional (not just gaming) entertainment district in the country. And compared to how desolate the north end of downtown was circa 1985, that would truly be a blessing. (Message edited by Gistok on May 31, 2007) | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1722 Registered: 10-2003 |
You make a point, Gistok. As for me, I can only hope to see Ilitch's plans frustrated a little here and there. The thought of that makes me smile. | ||
Toolbox Member Username: Toolbox Post Number: 1082 Registered: 10-2003 |
I just long for a congested downtown where the police don't need to teach the people how to cross the street at crosswalks and stoplights. I long for congestion that is constant and not from people "getting the fuck out". | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5958 Registered: 02-2004 |
Here's a land problem if Illitch want his new Little Caesar's Arena. Ne needs to talk with owners of Town Pump, The little store on the corner of Cass, The Pullman School, The owners of The Loyal Order of the Moose building, The congregation of the historic I am Temple Church, the owners of the Fine Arts Building and the owners of the parking garage. If He doesn't cooperate with them then there would be NO new stadium in Illitchville. He has to find another land proposal for his new stadium whether is Detroit or the suburbs. | ||
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 47 Registered: 05-2007 |
somebody catch that guy up ... | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 690 Registered: 01-2005 |
Verifiable: Could you by any chance post the recording information for the deed from Dennis K to West Grand River Lofts, LLC (Ilitch); thats the .17 acre site you referred to on another thread. I couldn't find the recording info or any other reference to the sale on the Wayne Cty Reg of Deeds site link you posted. [I've checked your website for your contact info and couldn't find it, possibly because I'm basically computer illiterate.] Thanks. | ||
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 48 Registered: 05-2007 |
Using the Wayne County Register of Deeds site, enter the phrase "elizabeth street" in the box marked "Last/Company Name" ... in "Party Type" select "Both" ... in "Document Type" leave it open ended (meaning don't select any of the menu options just keep it blank)... click "search" [This is by the way, how you do a more far reaching open ended search using that site] When the various "Elizabeth Street" entities come up you should find it in about the seventh row down the list Instrument #207083831 -- It's a "Warranty Deed" for property at "2030 W. Grand River"; in the "Name" column confirm it's "Elizabeth Street Lofts" (Dennis K's entity) and in the "Associated Name" column confirm it reads "West Grand River Lofts" (Ilitch affiliate); click on the instrument # and that should open a window with the extensive details for the transaction including the $1.73 million price tag. If you're looking for the size of the property and the structure on the property, we retrieved that from a subscription website used by mortgage brokers, lenders and the like ... if you give me your email address I can send you a .pdf version of that web page. Unfortunately we are not able to post .pdf files at this time. And finally, at TheVerifiableTruth.com look just above the Google search bar toward the top of the page; you'll see an appreciation & acknowledgement block with details on contacting us if you have questions, tips, pictures, etc. that you'd prefer to send privately rather than include in a post comment which is always an option should you need to contact the site's editors. [Big Sigh] Hope this what you are needing. BTW ... Tried to upload the file here but it's 93kb and the max here is something like 8kb for filing as attachment. Can email if you'd like. Cheers! | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 693 Registered: 01-2005 |
Many thanks. When I return to Detroit in a couple of days I'll print your instructions and try to get the info. I do appreciate you're taking the time to help me (and others) with this. More later. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1470 Registered: 06-2006 |
Little blurb in the Detroit News today about the possibility of a suburban hockey arena... Taking flight? A lot has been written about the possibility of the Red Wings moving out of Detroit to a suburban location. You can expect Oakland County executive L. Brooks Patterson to make a push to build the new Joe Louis Arena in Oakland County. However, it does not make sense. The Wings should remain downtown because their fan base is in Macomb County, Downriver and Canada. I never got the sense Oakland County was Red Wings country. Do not be surprised if a mixed-use project near Metropolitan Airport gets into the Wings bidding war. http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070625/SPORTS08/706250304/1004/SPORTS&imw=Y (Message edited by thejesus on June 25, 2007) | ||
Detroitstar Member Username: Detroitstar Post Number: 660 Registered: 01-2006 |
Do not underestimate the Wings appeal and fan base in the troy/bloomfield/novi/pontiac area. There is major fan support in this area, not to mention the players homes. With that said, I still dont see them leaving downtown...especially with the Ilitch empire and very popular pregame hangouts, including hockeytown cafe. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1200 Registered: 10-2006 |
If you absolutely had to pick a place in Oakland County, an arena in like Royal Oak or something might be an interesting IDEA. | ||
Tetsua Member Username: Tetsua Post Number: 1242 Registered: 01-2004 |
Why would Illitch move the arena further from their brand spankin new casino, and Foxtown? I kind of find it hard to believe they're serious about this. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1471 Registered: 06-2006 |
^if he did, it would likely be because the suburban location can offer something that Detroit can't at the moment, which is to contribute several million dollars to pay for a large chunk of the new arena... or, say, for example, that Detroit is the #1 choice but CC bar owner just straight up refuses to sell for anything that Ilitch will offer...then you move on to choice #2... I'd say this is all unlikely but I thought the mention of it in Detroit News was interesting nonetheless | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 559 Registered: 07-2006 |
An article in the free press today notes that the new business tax grants tax credits to Ilitch Holdings (among others) for maintaining or expanding sports arenas and concert venues. It notes that Comerica is eligible because it was not funded with tax dollers (which was news to me), while Ford Field is not eligible. If a new arena was built and privately funded, it would also fall under this tax break, making it more affordable for Ilitch to finance without public money. http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll /article?AID=/20070704/NEWS06/ 707040367 |
